Would there be any way a stone age culture could make a wheel? Seems to me that unless you can make a good saw, you’re going to struggle to make a properly functioning wheel. I am aware that people made little saws by gumming shark teeth to branches, or chipping little chert blades etc but to my mind those won’t be suitable for nice wood work.

I suppose you could glaze and bake a clay wheel … not suitable for transport but maybe good enough for pottery.

Are there any cases of pre-metallurgical people making wheels?

dv said:

Would there be any way a stone age culture could make a wheel? Seems to me that unless you can make a good saw, you’re going to struggle to make a properly functioning wheel. I am aware that people made little saws by gumming shark teeth to branches, or chipping little chert blades etc but to my mind those won’t be suitable for nice wood work.

I suppose you could glaze and bake a clay wheel … not suitable for transport but maybe good enough for pottery.

Are there any cases of pre-metallurgical people making wheels?

You could probably use a stone axe to chop slices of tree trunk to use as wheels.

I take it that the wheel was invented independently in several locations at various ages?

• I take it that the wheel was invented independently in several locations at various ages?

Seriously though, aside from rolling things over roughly round logs, without fine tools they would have had difficulty making a good wheel. Though they could probably round rocks and wood by grinding against harder rocks…

Earliest cars used rollers instead of wheels.

furious said:

Seriously though, aside from rolling things over roughly round logs, without fine tools they would have had difficulty making a good wheel. Though they could probably round rocks and wood by grinding against harder rocks…

Rollers were used from very early times.

Primitive wheel from tree trunk.

The wheel would have been pretty much a toy until the axel was invented.

Peak Warming Man said:

I take it that the wheel was invented independently in several locations at various ages?

Do you?

I’m not sure that I take that (not that I know much about it).

Peak Warming Man said:

The wheel would have been pretty much a toy until the axel was invented.

Like the first telephone.

Precursors of wheels, known as “tournettes” or “slow wheels”, were known in the Middle East by the 5th millennium BCE (one of the earliest examples was discovered at Tepe Pardis, Iran, and dated to 5200–4700 BCE). These were made of stone or clay and secured to the ground with a peg in the center, but required effort to turn. True (freely-spinning) potter’s wheels were apparently in use in Mesopotamia by 3500 BCE and possibly as early as 4000 BCE, and the oldest surviving example, which was found in Ur (modern day Iraq), dates to approximately 3100 BCE.

The first evidence of wheeled vehicles appears in the second half of the 4th millennium BCE, near-simultaneously in Mesopotamia (Sumerian civilization), the Northern Caucasus (Maykop culture) and Central Europe (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture), so the question of which culture originally invented the wheeled vehicle is still unsolved.

The earliest well-dated depiction of a wheeled vehicle (here a wagon — four wheels, two axles) is on the Bronocice pot, a c. 3500 – 3350 BCE clay pot excavated in a Funnelbeaker culture settlement in southern Poland.

The oldest securely dated real wheel-axle combination, that from Stare Gmajne near Ljubljana in Slovenia (Ljubljana Marshes Wooden Wheel) is now dated in 2s-limits to 3340–3030 BCE, the axle to 3360–3045 BCE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel

Peak Warming Man said:

I take it that the wheel was invented independently in several locations at various ages?

The wheel arose at least three times independently: in Mesopotamia, the Americas, and around the Black Sea. The native Americans did not make much use of the wheel, but they did use small wheels for some purposes, and of course they were metal users.

Seems as though there is some debate among boffinators about whether the Chinese developed the wheel independently.

Bubblecar said:

Primitive wheel from tree trunk.

But could you have even cut it nicely like that using stone tools?

Peak Warming Man said:

The wheel would have been pretty much a toy until the axel was invented.

rofl

Bubblecar said:

Precursors of wheels, known as “tournettes” or “slow wheels”, were known in the Middle East by the 5th millennium BCE (one of the earliest examples was discovered at Tepe Pardis, Iran, and dated to 5200–4700 BCE). These were made of stone or clay and secured to the ground with a peg in the center, but required effort to turn. True (freely-spinning) potter’s wheels were apparently in use in Mesopotamia by 3500 BCE and possibly as early as 4000 BCE, and the oldest surviving example, which was found in Ur (modern day Iraq), dates to approximately 3100 BCE.

The first evidence of wheeled vehicles appears in the second half of the 4th millennium BCE, near-simultaneously in Mesopotamia (Sumerian civilization), the Northern Caucasus (Maykop culture) and Central Europe (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture), so the question of which culture originally invented the wheeled vehicle is still unsolved.

The earliest well-dated depiction of a wheeled vehicle (here a wagon — four wheels, two axles) is on the Bronocice pot, a c. 3500 – 3350 BCE clay pot excavated in a Funnelbeaker culture settlement in southern Poland.

The oldest securely dated real wheel-axle combination, that from Stare Gmajne near Ljubljana in Slovenia (Ljubljana Marshes Wooden Wheel) is now dated in 2s-limits to 3340–3030 BCE, the axle to 3360–3045 BCE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel

What about the Far East, was the wheel invented independently there? say China.

• What about the Far East, was the wheel invented independently there? say China.

• Seems as though there is some debate among boffinators about whether the Chinese developed the wheel independently.

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

Primitive wheel from tree trunk.

But could you have even cut it nicely like that using stone tools?

Probably, if you were patient enough.

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

Bubblecar said:

Primitive wheel from tree trunk.

But could you have even cut it nicely like that using stone tools?

Probably, if you were patient enough.

I reckon I could make a stone file or a shell grit file.

Pfft. Everyone knows the wheel was invented and patented in 2001 by a patent lawyer named John Keogh in Hawthorn, Victoria. He even won an IgNobel for patenting it, although the patent was revoked a few years later.

Peak Warming Man said:

Bubblecar said:

dv said:

But could you have even cut it nicely like that using stone tools?

Probably, if you were patient enough.

I reckon I could make a stone file or a shell grit file.

Go on then…

dv said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Bubblecar said:

Probably, if you were patient enough.

I reckon I could make a stone file or a shell grit file.

Go on then…

ooOOOOOooooo

I think I’d get about 1% of the way through even cutting that tree down with a stone axe before thinking “How much do I need a wheel? Really? Have we become so obsessed by possessions that we have lost sight of what is important in life?”

dv said:

I think I’d get about 1% of the way through even cutting that tree down with a stone axe before thinking “How much do I need a wheel? Really? Have we become so obsessed by possessions that we have lost sight of what is important in life?”

If everyone was like you, nothing would ever get done.

The world would be quite different now if the wheel had never been invented.
DV’s arm would be normal for starters.

dv said:

Peak Warming Man said:

The wheel would have been pretty much a toy until the axle was invented.

rofl

Not rofl. This is true.

When we talk about the invention of the “wheel”, that’s shorthand for talking about the invention of the “wheel & axle”. To be more specific, we’re actually talking about the invention of the journal bearing.

dv said:

Would there be any way a stone age culture could make a wheel? Seems to me that unless you can make a good saw, you’re going to struggle to make a properly functioning wheel. I am aware that people made little saws by gumming shark teeth to branches, or chipping little chert blades etc but to my mind those won’t be suitable for nice wood work.

I suppose you could glaze and bake a clay wheel … not suitable for transport but maybe good enough for pottery.

Are there any cases of pre-metallurgical people making wheels?

Yes. A stone age culture could make a wheel and axle, with journal bearing. This is a four piece construction – wheel, axle, bearing with attached platform, and some way to hold the axle in the bearing (such as a second wheel, peg or wedge).

It wouldn’t have been too difficult in a stone-age culture to weave as wheel from basketwork, though it wouldn’t last long. a stone axe (or carefully controlled fire) could cut a tree trunk large enough to make a wheel. that’s not a problem.

Let us suppose that a pre-metallurgical people did make wheels. How would we know? The wheel, axle and bearing would all have to be made of wood or basketwork, which would have all rotted away by the time we came to dig it up. Wheels made of clay pottery wouldn’t be much use for transport, as you say.

And the other thing is why?

A pulled sled is better than a wheel and axle for many purposes. It can travel over terrain that a wheel & axle can’t – snow, boggy terrain, rocks. And it’s more easily repaired if it breaks.

All of which makes me wonder why? Given that a sled is better than a wheelbarrow, why was the wheel & axle invented in the first place?

mollwollfumble said:

dv said:

Peak Warming Man said:

The wheel would have been pretty much a toy until the axle was invented.

rofl

Not rofl. This is true.

When we talk about the invention of the “wheel”, that’s shorthand for talking about the invention of the “wheel & axle”. To be more specific, we’re actually talking about the invention of the journal bearing.

——

Yes rofl, BECAUSE it is true. The concept of a wheel is meaningless without an axle. That is the joke that PWM was making.

dv said:

I think I’d get about 1% of the way through even cutting that tree down with a stone axe before thinking “How much do I need a wheel? Really? Have we become so obsessed by possessions that we have lost sight of what is important in life?”

d’entrecasteaux said that the trees in this area were too big to consider felling.

mollwollfumble said:

A pulled sled is better than a wheel and axle for many purposes. It can travel over terrain that a wheel & axle can’t – snow, boggy terrain, rocks. And it’s more easily repaired if it breaks.

All of which makes me wonder why? Given that a sled is better than a wheelbarrow, why was the wheel & axle invented in the first place?

What?

The coeffecient of friction of a wheel is generally way lower than that of a sled unless you’re a bloody eskimo.

sibeen said:

mollwollfumble said:

A pulled sled is better than a wheel and axle for many purposes. It can travel over terrain that a wheel & axle can’t – snow, boggy terrain, rocks. And it’s more easily repaired if it breaks.

All of which makes me wonder why? Given that a sled is better than a wheelbarrow, why was the wheel & axle invented in the first place?

What?

The coeffecient of friction of a wheel is generally way lower than that of a sled unless you’re a bloody eskimo.

A lot more wear on a sled unless it’s on a low friction surface.

The north American Indian travois was very effective.
Very good over rough terrain, independent suspension and the only maintenance was a bit of friction wear

http://www.native-languages.org/travois.htm

Have a look at this image. Although it’s widely agreed that the stones for Stonehenge were moved by barge and roller, someone has made this alternative suggestion. Here we have a hypothesised invention of the pulley and the journal bearing before the axle.

mollwollfumble said:

Have a look at this image. Although it’s widely agreed that the stones for Stonehenge were moved by barge and roller, someone has made this alternative suggestion. Here we have a hypothesised invention of the pulley and the journal bearing before the axle.

Excellent.

sarahs mum said:

dv said:

I think I’d get about 1% of the way through even cutting that tree down with a stone axe before thinking “How much do I need a wheel? Really? Have we become so obsessed by possessions that we have lost sight of what is important in life?”

d’entrecasteaux said that the trees in this area were too big to consider felling.

And that’s why we are not Frogs

Fair to say that the choice of sled versus wheelbarrow will depend on terrain.

Interestingly, the wheelbarrow seems to have been invented about 3000 years after the two wheeled hand cart.

dv said:

The wheel arose at least three times independently: in Mesopotamia, the Americas, and around the Black Sea. The native Americans did not make much use of the wheel, but they did use small wheels for some purposes, and of course they were metal users.

Fairly unlikely that the wheel was imported into the Americas I suppose, but how can we possibly know if the second of Mesopotamia and the Black Sea was an independent invention or a copy?

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

The wheel arose at least three times independently: in Mesopotamia, the Americas, and around the Black Sea. The native Americans did not make much use of the wheel, but they did use small wheels for some purposes, and of course they were metal users.

Fairly unlikely that the wheel was imported into the Americas I suppose, but how can we possibly know if the second of Mesopotamia and the Black Sea was an independent invention or a copy?

Fair question, and I don’t know, but I assume the archaeologists have done their homework. Perhaps they were in completely different styles and methodologies. Perhaps they each had distinct precursors.

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

The wheel arose at least three times independently: in Mesopotamia, the Americas, and around the Black Sea. The native Americans did not make much use of the wheel, but they did use small wheels for some purposes, and of course they were metal users.

Fairly unlikely that the wheel was imported into the Americas I suppose, but how can we possibly know if the second of Mesopotamia and the Black Sea was an independent invention or a copy?

Fair question, and I don’t know, but I assume the archaeologists have done their homework. Perhaps they were in completely different styles and methodologies. Perhaps they each had distinct precursors.

Yeah, but archaeologists say stuff on flimsy evidence, because they know that nothing will fall down if they get it wrong.

square wheels work well on a catenary surface.

mollwollfumble said:

dv said:

Peak Warming Man said:

The wheel would have been pretty much a toy until the axle was invented.

rofl

Not rofl. This is true.

When we talk about the invention of the “wheel”, that’s shorthand for talking about the invention of the “wheel & axle”. To be more specific, we’re actually talking about the invention of the journal bearing.

dv said:

Would there be any way a stone age culture could make a wheel? Seems to me that unless you can make a good saw, you’re going to struggle to make a properly functioning wheel. I am aware that people made little saws by gumming shark teeth to branches, or chipping little chert blades etc but to my mind those won’t be suitable for nice wood work.

I suppose you could glaze and bake a clay wheel … not suitable for transport but maybe good enough for pottery.

Are there any cases of pre-metallurgical people making wheels?

Yes. A stone age culture could make a wheel and axle, with journal bearing. This is a four piece construction – wheel, axle, bearing with attached platform, and some way to hold the axle in the bearing (such as a second wheel, peg or wedge).

It wouldn’t have been too difficult in a stone-age culture to weave as wheel from basketwork, though it wouldn’t last long. a stone axe (or carefully controlled fire) could cut a tree trunk large enough to make a wheel. that’s not a problem.

Let us suppose that a pre-metallurgical people did make wheels. How would we know? The wheel, axle and bearing would all have to be made of wood or basketwork, which would have all rotted away by the time we came to dig it up. Wheels made of clay pottery wouldn’t be much use for transport, as you say.

And the other thing is why?

A pulled sled is better than a wheel and axle for many purposes. It can travel over terrain that a wheel & axle can’t – snow, boggy terrain, rocks. And it’s more easily repaired if it breaks.

All of which makes me wonder why? Given that a sled is better than a wheelbarrow, why was the wheel & axle invented in the first place?

Because not everywhere is always covered with snow. Wheels have less friction and can go over rocks better than a sled.

sarahs mum said:

dv said:

I think I’d get about 1% of the way through even cutting that tree down with a stone axe before thinking “How much do I need a wheel? Really? Have we become so obsessed by possessions that we have lost sight of what is important in life?”

d’entrecasteaux said that the trees in this area were too big to consider felling.

So he waited until they fell.

Peak Warming Man said:

The north American Indian travois was very effective.
Very good over rough terrain, independent suspension and the only maintenance was a bit of friction wear

http://www.native-languages.org/travois.htm

The big advantage of the travois was that it was pulled rather than pushed.

roughbarked said:

Peak Warming Man said:

The north American Indian travois was very effective.
Very good over rough terrain, independent suspension and the only maintenance was a bit of friction wear

http://www.native-languages.org/travois.htm

The big advantage of the travois was that it was pulled rather than pushed.

Yes. Do not put the cart/travois before the horse.
When human powered, you can pull a sled much faster than you can push a wheelbarrow.

mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

Peak Warming Man said:

The north American Indian travois was very effective.
Very good over rough terrain, independent suspension and the only maintenance was a bit of friction wear

http://www.native-languages.org/travois.htm

The big advantage of the travois was that it was pulled rather than pushed.

Yes. Do not put the cart/travois before the horse.
When human powered, you can pull a sled much faster than you can push a wheelbarrow.

How about pulling a wheelbarrow?

bob(from black rock) said:

mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

The big advantage of the travois was that it was pulled rather than pushed.

Yes. Do not put the cart/travois before the horse.
When human powered, you can pull a sled much faster than you can push a wheelbarrow.

How about pulling a wheelbarrow?

All you have to do is try it. I could tell you that pulling uses less energy than pushing but you probably won’t believe me.

roughbarked said:

bob(from black rock) said:

mollwollfumble said:

Yes. Do not put the cart/travois before the horse.
When human powered, you can pull a sled much faster than you can push a wheelbarrow.

How about pulling a wheelbarrow?

All you have to do is try it. I could tell you that pulling uses less energy than pushing but you probably won’t believe me.

I believe you. OTOH in difficult terrain, pushing might be easier for steering.

dv said:

roughbarked said:

bob(from black rock) said:

How about pulling a wheelbarrow?

All you have to do is try it. I could tell you that pulling uses less energy than pushing but you probably won’t believe me.

I believe you. OTOH in difficult terrain, pushing might be easier for steering.

When you push something on the ground, the push increases the weight of the object being pushed, but when you pull something the weight is reduced.

bob(from black rock) said:

dv said:

roughbarked said:

All you have to do is try it. I could tell you that pulling uses less energy than pushing but you probably won’t believe me.

I believe you. OTOH in difficult terrain, pushing might be easier for steering.

When you push something on the ground, the push increases the weight of the object being pushed, but when you pull something the weight is reduced.

That’s why trailers work better than loading the car with the same weight.

Tamb said:

bob(from black rock) said:

dv said:

I believe you. OTOH in difficult terrain, pushing might be easier for steering.

When you push something on the ground, the push increases the weight of the object being pushed, but when you pull something the weight is reduced.

That’s why trailers work better than loading the car with the same weight.

So put the car on the trailer then?

bob(from black rock) said:

dv said:

I believe you. OTOH in difficult terrain, pushing might be easier for steering.

When you push something on the ground, the push increases the weight of the object being pushed, but when you pull something the weight is reduced.

This just moves weight between one and the other.