Date: 28/02/2017 16:10:48
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1031318
Subject: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

Am really enjoying attending the AIAC17. Spiny Norman and other engineers on the forum would have enjoyed it, too.

The paper presenters are even crazier than I am, which is saying something. I like them. Judge for yourself. The papers I saw presented today are, in order:

1. Cost and size of electric motors for powering aircraft propellers, up to 250 kW.

2. Australia needs blimps.

3. Restarting the rotor on a hybrid helicopter-plane.

4. Flapping-wing unmanned aerial vehicle

5. Swarm of tiny spacecraft to an asteroid

6. Short haul airplane made by welding two conventional fuselages side to side.

7. Hybrid fuel+electric aircraft recharging the battery using waste heat recovery.

8. Difficulty targeting future flying autonomous smart weapons. (The first autonomous smart weapon was the elephant).

9. Fabricate electronics before the design is complete

10. Bushfire detection in Australia using a swarm of 50 or more nanosatellites launched every three years.

11. A space launch system where the booster rockets sprout wings and fly home like a shuttle.

Reply Quote

Date: 28/02/2017 16:13:41
From: dv
ID: 1031319
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

Tell me more about the blimps

Reply Quote

Date: 28/02/2017 16:13:43
From: dv
ID: 1031320
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

Tell me more about the blimps

Reply Quote

Date: 28/02/2017 16:17:20
From: party_pants
ID: 1031322
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

dv said:


Tell me more about the blimps

+1

Reply Quote

Date: 28/02/2017 22:53:34
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 1031351
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

This one? http://aiac17.com/

Yes, it does look most interesting.

Reply Quote

Date: 28/02/2017 23:11:15
From: roughbarked
ID: 1031352
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

party_pants said:


dv said:

Tell me more about the blimps

+1

I am also interested in the blimps. ;)

Reply Quote

Date: 1/03/2017 15:27:28
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1031776
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

party_pants said:


dv said:

Tell me more about the blimps

+1

Will do.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/03/2017 16:48:40
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1031818
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

Spiny Norman said:


This one? http://aiac17.com/

Yes, it does look most interesting.

Yep. That one.

> Australia needs blimps

On the Potential of Lighter-Than-Air and Hybrid Aircraft for the Australian Civil Sector
G. E. Dorrington 1, J. Silva1, C. Bil 1 and P. Marzocca 1
1 School of Engineering, Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, PO Box 71, Bundoora, Victoria, 3083, Australia

Abstract

A brief comparison between traditional non-rigid airships and hybrid-lifting-body-type,
lighter-than-aircraft of similar size is presented. Mass breakdown is discussed. Brief
comments are made on ground handling, transport efficiency and life-cycle costs. A mission
example presented is intended to match Australian geographic parameters. Although further
study is needed to verify the findings presented, it is suggested that in some niche applications
hybrid aircraft could offer useful advantages/gains within the Australian civil sector.

Keywords: airship, dirigible, aerostatic, transport, efficiency, cargo, surveillance, patrol
Introduction

Lighter-Than-Air (LTA) aircraft are often overlooked as possible solutions to a gamut of
commercial aviation roles which are dominated almost entirely by Heavier-Than-Air (HTA)
aircraft. Australia is relatively unique geopolitically in terms of land area/perimeter, resources
and population distribution. Hence LTA aircraft might have advantages in the Australian
context. This question must include the so-called hybrid LTA aircraft which balance weight
with a combination of propulsive, aerodynamic and aerostatic lift. Hybrids challenge the
general prevailing perception that all LTA solutions are impractical and uncompetitive with
HTA aircraft. One such hybrid aircraft that has recently flown in the UK is the Airlander 10
, shown in Fig. 1, whose specification includes: a maximum cruising airspeed of ~148
km/h (80 knots); a payload carrying capability ~10 tonnes; operational ceiling (pressure
height) up to 4880 m (16,000 feet); and an endurance of 5 days.

Fig. 1, Airlander 10 (images courtesy of Hybrid Air Vehicles, Cardington, UK).

It has been claimed that the specific transport costs ($/tonne) of this hybrid are somewhat less
than any commercial cargo aircraft currently in operation . As well as cargo transport, the
diverse possible markets for such vehicle might include passenger sightseeing flights,
emergency services and surveillance, mining resource surveys, and coastal patrol, etc. This
paper presents a brief discussion on the performance of an Airlander-type hybrid craft, vis-avis
more traditional, near-neutrally-buoyant airships, such as the former Goodyear ZP3G ,
which had a similar load capacity. The numerical examples presented, are intended to match
Australian geographic parameters. It is concluded that further study is needed to verify the
preliminary findings, but that in some niche applications hybrid LTA aircraft such as
Airlander 10, or larger versions, could have some useful advantages/gains within the
Australian civil sector.

Aerodynamic Comparison

The fundamental aerodynamic difference between a lifting-body-type, or multi-hull, hybrid
LTA aircraft and the conventional airship lies in the parameters of drag polar – which for
illustrative purposes may be simply expressed as:
(equation here)

Fig. 2, Drag Polars of Conventional Hull Airship and Hybrid Airship.

Whereas the traditional airship is limited to maximum lift coefficients ~0.3, the hybrid can
achieve lift coefficients as high as ~0.8. This simple comparison suggests that the traditional
airship has lower cruise power at near neutral buoyancy conditions and/or offers high
maximum cruise speed, but the hybrid offers increased dynamic lift and/or maintains the same
dynamic lift at lower loiter airspeeds. However, caution is needed in this immediate
interpretation, since a comparison based on equal hull volumes is not necessarily fair.
Traditional airships are typically operated when static lift is ~85+% of the total lift ,
whereas the hybrid may be designed to operate at as low as 60% static lift, i.e., it might be
expected that for a given payload capability the hull volume of hybrid is lower than that of the
traditional design. In the following sections, it is shown that this is not actually the case.

Simplified Mass Breakdown

Various simplifications may be employed to predict airship mass breakdown with some
reasonably good comparisons with real data . For illustrative purposes, the useful
load of a pressurised non-rigid airship can be approximated by the following simplified
expression,
(equation)

Actual Mass Breakdown Comparison

Table 1 lists the parameters of the Airlander 10 with those of selected non-rigid airships. The
useful load of the Airlander 10 is comparable with the ZP3G which had a much lower hull
volume. The main reasons for the lower payload fraction appear to be the increased empty
weight fraction of the hybrid which is partly associated with the higher surface-area-tovolume
ratio hull and the lower value of specific power, peng.

The maximum cruise speed of the Airlander 10 is lower than that of the ZP3G and the ZPG-
3W, although this also reflects the lower installed engine power of the Airlander 10 which is
comparable to that of the much smaller ZS2G1. However, direct comparison of these
parameters should be tempered by that the fact the Airlander 10 has been designed for a much
higher ceiling. Note that at loiter conditions at 10 m/s (20 kts), the Airlander 10 can generate
much higher dynamic lift.

The flight test programme of Airlander 10 is still in the early stages. It is not yet clear if the
Airlander 10 can achieve the specified maximum cruise speed of Umax = 41 m/s (80 kts).
Aside from the uncertainty in the drag coefficient (in an essentially non-lifting flight mode), it
is also still not yet clear what the value of propulsive efficiency of the aft ducted propeller
units will be when operated in close conjunction with the aft hull, although the wind tunnel
studies performed by McLemore suggest relatively high propulsive efficiencies.
The ZP3G baseline adopted three Allison GM500 engines with an installed specific power
0.89 kW/kg, whereas the Airlander 10 employs four variants of the AVIC Continental CD-
300 turbo-diesel engines normally rated at 231 kW (310 hp), with a lower installed specific
power. The advantage of the turbo-diesel is that specific fuel consumption ~210 g/kWh is
about half that of the former Allison engines.

Table 1: Comparison of Airlander 10 with Past US Non-Rigid Airships
Parameter ZS2G1 ZP3G ZPG-3W Airlander 10
Hull volume /m3 18200 24777 42928 38000
Static buoyancy /kN ~156 232 369 ~292
Empty weight /kN ? 150 223 196
Gross weight /kN ? 250 416 ?
Useful load /kN ? 100 193 98
Max. cruise / (ms-1) 37 50 46 41?
Engine power /kW 1020 1790 1790 969
Endurance / h ? 101 170 120
Ballonet ceiling /ft ? 9700 5000 16000
Estimated CDV 0.048 0.028 0.025 0.03-0.05?
Max. CLV 0.3 0.3 0.3 0.8
Max. dyn. lift @ 10 ms-1/kN 12 15 22 54

In summary, after consideration of the factors presented above and inspection of Table 1, it
cannot be confidently predicted that Airlander 10 offers improved performance over previous
non-rigid airships of comparable size. However, it is important to stress that the Airlander 10
probably offers other unique advantages in terms of low speed controllability and
manoeuvrability that would undoubtedly impact on ground operations.

Ground Operations and Influence of Gusts

A major consideration in LTA operations is the number of ground staff needed to assist with
ground operations. The Airlander 10 has vectored thrust units both fore and aft. Low speed
yaw manoeuvring capability would also be enhanced by the intended bow thruster.
Consequently, Airlander 10 should be capable of controlled hovering in static conditions
when ~30 kN heavy. This suggests it would be possible to offload 20 kN without having to
pick up ballast, which would represent a major operational improvement over fixed-thrustvector
airships. The reduced-size docking mast required is set back from the nose on the belly
as has been done in the past. Wind speeds in many regions of Australia are relatively low
much of year, and would not present any operational difficulties. However, it is not yet clear
whether, or not, such docking scheme would cater for the extreme gust conditions associated
with cyclones which occasionally track across the northern regions of Australia. Gust speeds
in excess of 285 km/h were recorded during cyclone Yasi in 2011. Research is also still
needed on such possible gust loading effects.

Airships of the type considered here can accelerate and decelerate to and from maximum
flight speed within ~60 s, i.e. of the order of five hull lengths. Calculations of added (or
virtual) mass are needed to make predictions of such accelerations, but it is also essential
to consider the behaviour of the viscous boundary layer in such non-steady conditions and
actual flight data suggests dynamics are often affected by flow separations that are not
accounted for in potential flow simulations and analysis.

Transport Efficiency

The productivity of any cargo transporter may be defined as the useful load carried multiplied
by the transport speed. Since the transporters acquisition cost is often directly linked to its
empty mass, a useful figure of merit is specific productivity,
(equation)

It could exceed road freight which is limited to 100 km/h over much of Australia.
For example, assume 10 tonnes of cargo needed to be transported from Freemantle Port in
Perth to a mine (say) near Cloudbreak in the Mulga Hills (WA). The road trip over 1374 km
mainly along a highway would take ~ 16 hours (without break), i.e. the average transit speed
is ~88 km/h, whereas the direct flight would take ~8 hours at 148 km/h (80 knot) at maximum
speed. Such a hybrid aircraft cargo flight would probably not be of economically viable,
unless the cargo happens to be an oversize item and/or the final drop-off point cannot be
reached by road. If it is assumed the Airlander 10 is powered by all four turbo-diesels
operating at their maximum power rating, then the fuel consumption rate would be ~200 kg/h.
However, since Ysp varies as the inverse square of the cruise speed, travelling at half speed, 20
m/s (40 knot) results in the consumption rate dropping to ~50 kg/h and required fuel load
being halved for a given range. At these low speeds, both the ZP3G and Airlander 10 have
much higher Ysp than any HTA aircraft.

Life Cycle Costs and Mission Roles

A comprehensive life-cycle cost analysis was performed on the ZP non-rigid, maritime patrol
airships in 1980. The conclusion of this study was that these airships had lower life-cycle
costs than any other competitive HTA options. It is likely the detailed role requirements for
aerial maritime patrol have changed since 1980 with the introduction of satellite systems
(etc.), but it is still likely that a similar comparative result would be found today. The
Australian requirements for maritime patrol are also arguably more demanding that those of
the US, given the larger coastal perimeter, although current operating budgets are likely to
much more restrictive. Nevertheless, the budget for Australian Customs and Border Protection
for 2012-2013 was $1.3 Billion hence it is not inconceivable that potential civil airship
maritime operations are relevant. Other civil mission roles appear to be worthy of
consideration. For example, tourist flights over land marks such as Uluru might be
marketable. The ability to loiter for long periods is another particular advantage of airships.
For example, one could imagine Airlander 10 being used as an aerial command centre for
coordinating the suppression of a major bushfire over a 5-day period. Of course, these are
speculative examples, but serve to illustrate the need for detailed study.

Concluding Remarks

Airships (hybrid LTA or more conventional types) cannot simply be dismissed from
consideration for many civil operations within Australia. The opportunity for improved
modelling now exists not only to perform realistic design synthesis, but also to
predict flight behaviour with good accuracy, including behaviour under gusting conditions.
Life cycle modelling tools can also be employed to better predict operational costs. With such
models, the effects of scaling-up the Airlander 10 to the Airlander 50 could be addressed.
In summary, there is a good argument to develop comprehensive models to evaluate whether,
or not, conventional and unconventional airships have possible competitive roles within the
Australian civil sector. It seems likely that in certain niche operations, airships will have
certain eco-economic advantages that will deserve attention in the future.

A picture of the Airlander 10

Reply Quote

Date: 1/03/2017 16:54:03
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1031820
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

aerial or macro photography

Reply Quote

Date: 1/03/2017 23:50:35
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1031845
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

Spiny Norman said:


This one? http://aiac17.com/

Yes, it does look most interesting.


Is there anything of specific interest? I didn’t see everything because there were so many parallel sessions.

I met some interesting people, some items that I thought might be of specific interest to you are now foggy in my memory, there was one mention of a company that makes light aircraft in Australia and one mention of a Sydney person who has built a 747 flight simulator in their garage.

Perhaps if I list the talk titles/subjects. I can recommend “Modelling Small Electric Brushless Motors and Propellers” which won the prize for the best student paper. The author analysed quadcopter control.

The Paris equation
The Airbus A400M
Automatic Integrated Collision Avoidance System
The Effect of Icing on Small Unmanned Aircraft
Australian Missile Vibration Test
Adhesively Bonded Doubler Repairs of Fatigue Crack Bonded composite joints using z-pins
Partnership in Computational Aeroelasticity
Improving fatigue life predictions
C-17 International Drag Reduction Program
Transonic Flutter and Buffet
Nonlinear Aeroelastic Response of the AGARD 445.6 Wing
Australian Defence Force Unmanned Aerial Systems
Infrared Surface Imaging using Nanosats and High Altitude UAVs
Understanding fatigue behaviour
A GNSS multipath model for aerial navigation
Numerical Structural Analysis
The Effect of Viscosity on a Three-Degree-of-Freedom Aerofoil
Aluminium alloy A357 manufactured by Selective Laser Melting
Selective Laser Melted Ti-6Al-4V alloy components
Dragonfly Inspired Micro-AVs
A Virtual Pilot Assistant System for Single Pilot Operations of Commercial Transport Aircraft
UAV Delivery System Design and Analysis
Vibration Analysis of Tapered Rotating Beams
Basalt-fibre reinforced polymer composites
Motion and force feedback for a low cost PC Based Simulator
Using Static Load Equations for Dynamic Load Prediction
Biodiesel in a model jet engine
THE NASGRO EQUATION FOR COMPUTING CRACK GROWTH
The Lead Crack Concept Applied to Defect Growth
A Possible Future Short Haul Airliner
Aircraft Collision Avoidance
Reduction of aircraft cabin noise using composites
Leading Edge Control Surfaces for Micro-AV Flight
Energy harvesting in hybrid light aircraft
Airworthiness certification of small UAVs
Future platforms for air delivered ordnance
A VTOL aircraft
Engineering Design Education and Research
Magnesium Alloy/Nano-Metastable-Syntactic Composites
RPAS ground control systems: remote pilot or air traffic controller?
Finding an Elusive Crack in a Brake Assembly Piston Rod
Camera for UAV Mapping and Collision Avoidanc
An Anemometer
Review of Standard Passenger and Cabin Luggage Weight Procedures
Debris Analysis
USAF risk of failure approach
GROWTH OF SMALL CRACKS
Large Volume Production in a Concurrent Design Environment (Electronics)
Turbine rotor repair
Instantaneous Climb Performance Michael E. Young 368
Quadcopter sizing
Solid Rocket Motor Optimisation
Additive Manufacturing Technology
CH-47F Flight Test Instrumentation
Thermoelastic Stress Analysis for Airframe Full Scale Fatigue Testing
Interaction effects of a flat plate on supersonic jet screech
RPAS Detect and Avoid
Reliability of Multi UAV Operations
Enhanced UAV Autonomy
Automatic Beacon Ejection System for Aircraft
Safety inspection intervals of airframe structures
Satellite Launch System with Fly-Home Components
Safety and Security of Next Generation Avionics and Air Traffic Management
Modelling Small Electric Brushless Motors and Propellers
Visual Scan Patterns of pilots in VFR landing
Biomimetic Design for Pest Bird Control UAVs
The effect of dents on strength and fatigue of metallic honeycombs
Quantitative Fractography
Lighter-Than-Air and Hybrid Aircraft for the Australian Civil Sector
Augmented Lift with Tip Thruster on a Rotor
UAV Multi-rotor Air-Crane
Reducing Aircraft Stall Speed of Firefighting Aircraft
Supersonic Wind Tunnel Facility
Fluid-Structure Coupling
How heavy are passengers and their luggage?
Manned and Unmanned Aircraft Separation Assurance and Collision Avoidance
Load Spectrum Compression through the Preservation of Damage Content
Indoor Navigation using Ultrasound Beacons
Degradation of Mechanical Properties of Airframe Aluminium Alloy
Effect of Chromic Acid and Sulphuric Acid Anodising on Fatigue Performance
Digital enabled disruption with commercial small Unmanned Aerial Systems (sUAS)
Inspection of Additive Manufactured Components Using Laser Ultrasound
HIFiRE 8 hypersonic flight test vehicle
etc.

Reply Quote

Date: 2/03/2017 00:12:23
From: Spiny Norman
ID: 1031865
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

mollwollfumble said:


Is there anything of specific interest?

Erp! About 90% of all that! Too much to take in, I’ll catch up when I can on-line.

Reply Quote

Date: 2/03/2017 04:21:45
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1031976
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

Spiny Norman said:


mollwollfumble said:

Is there anything of specific interest?

Erp! About 90% of all that! Too much to take in, I’ll catch up when I can on-line.

I’ve heard it’s on the RMIT website, but I have a copy at home from the conference, and a few hand-written notes.

Reply Quote

Date: 2/03/2017 12:12:33
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1032220
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

Tomorrow at Avalon Airshow, with morning lectures. I’d better leave home before 7:30 at the very latest. Better before 7 am.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/03/2017 13:31:09
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1032613
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

More issues have come up from the lectures at Avalon and from the airshow itself.

1) how do you make carbon-carbon composite, which is carbon fibres embedded in a matrix of carbon. ?

2) the Australian company Grollo Aerospace makes a liquid fuelled (LOX) rocket as well a supersonic ramjet Mach 3 that is being airlaunched as a defence practice target. Their base is Moorabbin airport, within walking distance of my house.

3) there is an Australian company, I have the business card somewhere, which is making and testing a paraffin and oxygen hybrid rocket with a massive 55 cm diameter.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/03/2017 13:31:27
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1032614
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

More issues have come up from the lectures at Avalon and from the airshow itself.

1) how do you make carbon-carbon composite, which is carbon fibres embedded in a matrix of carbon. ?

2) the Australian company Grollo Aerospace makes a liquid fuelled (LOX) rocket as well a supersonic ramjet Mach 3 that is being airlaunched as a defence practice target. Their base is Moorabbin airport, within walking distance of my house.

3) there is an Australian company, I have the business card somewhere, which is making and testing a paraffin and oxygen hybrid rocket with a massive 55 cm diameter.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/03/2017 13:33:09
From: sibeen
ID: 1032615
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

mollwollfumble said:

2) the Australian company Grollo Aerospace makes a liquid fuelled (LOX) rocket as well a supersonic ramjet Mach 3 that is being airlaunched as a defence practice target. Their base is Moorabbin airport, within walking distance of my house.

If they ever launch from Moorabbin I’d put in a noise complaint if I was you.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/03/2017 13:45:52
From: Bogsnorkler
ID: 1032618
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

mollwollfumble said:

2) the Australian company Grollo Aerospace makes a liquid fuelled (LOX) rocket as well a supersonic ramjet Mach 3 that is being airlaunched as a defence practice target. Their base is Moorabbin airport, within walking distance of my house.

want some fuel with that LOX oxidiser?

Reply Quote

Date: 3/03/2017 13:54:02
From: sibeen
ID: 1032619
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

No party has won a majority in Netherland elections in over a century.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/03/2017 13:56:34
From: sibeen
ID: 1032621
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

Which may be relevant if you think about it very hard. KLM is the world’s oldest operating airline after all.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/03/2017 13:59:37
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1032622
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

Bogsnorkler said:


mollwollfumble said:

2) the Australian company Grollo Aerospace makes a liquid fuelled (LOX) rocket as well a supersonic ramjet Mach 3 that is being airlaunched as a defence practice target. Their base is Moorabbin airport, within walking distance of my house.

want some fuel with that LOX oxidiser?

I was told what the fuel is. I’ll check the website.
http://www.grolloaerospace.com.au

The rocket “MLG-500 is a liquid propellant (liquid oxygen / Jet A-1) rocket motor producing 500 pounds of thrust. It is a regeneratively-cooled unit allowing reliable sustained operation and potential re-ignition during flight. It is designed for incorporation into a combined-cycle rocket/ramjet propulsion system currently under development.”

Ramjet is far more fuel efficient and practical for supersonic aircraft than scramjet is. But is never used either.

The Grollo built ramjet “is capable of producing 500 pounds of thrust and delivering efficient flight up to Mach 3 over a large range of altitudes. The unit maintains effective combustion throughout its operational envelope by systems regulation performed by an electronic engine control system developed in-house. With a robust design, the regeneratively-cooled unit can reliably withstand sustained operation over a wide speed range. Extensive use of non-exotic materials and manufacturing processes help to reduce production and maintenance costs and accelerate the development process of the MLG-RAM Propulsion System.”

Reply Quote

Date: 3/03/2017 14:06:14
From: dv
ID: 1032626
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

sibeen said:


No party has won a majority in Netherland elections in over a century.

Of the vote or of the Tweede Kamer seats?

Reply Quote

Date: 3/03/2017 14:08:51
From: sibeen
ID: 1032630
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

dv said:


sibeen said:

No party has won a majority in Netherland elections in over a century.

Of the vote or of the Tweede Kamer seats?

Of the seats, which in their weird arsed proportional single state representation would also mean the vote I imagine.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/03/2017 14:30:47
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1032646
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

mollwollfumble said:


1) how do you make carbon-carbon composite, which is carbon fibres embedded in a matrix of carbon. ?

The problem is as follows. You know how charcoal, made by burning cellulose in low oxygen, is very porous.

If you start with carbon fibres in a polymer matrix, and heat it to carbonise the polymer, then the carbon fibres survive but the matrix is both porous and full of cracks. Which is no use unless you reimpregnate with polymer and repeat. And repeat again, and again. To get the required 9 or so iterations requires a time of 4 to 6 months, which is an unacceptably long time for a single piece of carbon in carbon.

We need someone to invent a faster way.

Reply Quote

Date: 3/03/2017 14:34:08
From: dv
ID: 1032650
Subject: re: 17th Australian International Aerospace Congress

sibeen said:


dv said:

sibeen said:

No party has won a majority in Netherland elections in over a century.

Of the vote or of the Tweede Kamer seats?

Of the seats, which in their weird arsed proportional single state representation would also mean the vote I imagine.

Seems to be the key to stable successful government.

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