Date: 20/03/2017 05:28:28
From: dv
ID: 1040476
Subject: Pre-agrarian villages

Previously (ie before yesterday) I thought that the formation of permanent settlements occurred at basically the same time as the invention of agriculture, or perhaps somewhat after. The reason for the existence of villages was to maintain residence next to crops and to store the grain.

Since then I’ve learned about the Natufian culture in the Levant, which existed from around 12500 BC. They built small settlements with long-standing buildings for a few hundred people at most, but were solely hunter-gatherers. They did collect native cereals but had no pottery or other means of storing them, and no kind of agriculture until 10500 BC or thereabouts.

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Date: 20/03/2017 05:32:14
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1040483
Subject: re: Pre-agrarian villages

I wonder how many pre-agrarian villages there are below current sea level.

And what about Australia? Any evidence of ancient villages here?

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Date: 20/03/2017 05:34:10
From: buffy
ID: 1040484
Subject: re: Pre-agrarian villages

There are very old stone villages in this area, although you could say they were farming as there are also extensive eel traps in the area.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1561665.htm

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Date: 20/03/2017 05:35:11
From: buffy
ID: 1040486
Subject: re: Pre-agrarian villages

And over in the West too, apparently:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/indigenous/aborigines-were-building-stone-houses-9000-years-ago/news-story/30ef4873a7c8aaa2b80d01a12680df77

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Date: 20/03/2017 05:35:27
From: Tamb
ID: 1040488
Subject: re: Pre-agrarian villages

dv said:


Previously (ie before yesterday) I thought that the formation of permanent settlements occurred at basically the same time as the invention of agriculture, or perhaps somewhat after. The reason for the existence of villages was to maintain residence next to crops and to store the grain.

Since then I’ve learned about the Natufian culture in the Levant, which existed from around 12500 BC. They built small settlements with long-standing buildings for a few hundred people at most, but were solely hunter-gatherers. They did collect native cereals but had no pottery or other means of storing them, and no kind of agriculture until 10500 BC or thereabouts.

The Jirrabul people from the Atherton Tablelands had semi-permanent settlements.
Food was abundant & they only moved when human detritus made a fresh but close-by settlement desirable.

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Date: 20/03/2017 05:42:22
From: buffy
ID: 1040492
Subject: re: Pre-agrarian villages

There is quite a bit of info in this link. It seems valid.

http://austhrutime.com/aboriginal_shelter.htm

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Date: 20/03/2017 07:24:48
From: dv
ID: 1040505
Subject: re: Pre-agrarian villages

My (possibly incorrect) understanding was that aboriginal settlements were associated with basic agriculture.

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Date: 20/03/2017 07:36:13
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1040508
Subject: re: Pre-agrarian villages

The reason why hunter/gatherers moved around was purely so they would not exhaust the resources at any one location, however when harvesting a wild grain, they could stay longer for longer periods. Nevertheless they are still nomadic and must move on once that resource is used. In other words they were not semi-permanent or permanent settlements, but one of many places they moved to at certain times of the year.

No doubt, as they would be there for slightly longer periods, then why not make yourself more comfortable with some sort of building.
There is little point in building grain storage buildings to prolong your stay, unless there were other foods they could also harvest, which seems unlike after a prolonged stay.

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Date: 20/03/2017 07:40:35
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1040509
Subject: re: Pre-agrarian villages

When the earth was young and we were dim
Survival was our only thing
We had no time to grow our brain
Until that is we planted grain
Time to wonder, time to ponder

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Date: 20/03/2017 07:49:42
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1040512
Subject: re: Pre-agrarian villages

Reading the adventures of Pamphlet, Finnegan and the other chap who lived with the Aborigines on Morton Island it suggest that they weren’t very nomadic at all.
They did travel to the Bunya Mountains when the nuts were in season but that’s about it.
They had all the seafood you could want and deep crystal clear lakes on the island to slake their thirst.
What a life.

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Date: 20/03/2017 07:52:29
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1040514
Subject: re: Pre-agrarian villages

Peak Warming Man said:


Reading the adventures of Pamphlet, Finnegan and the other chap who lived with the Aborigines on Morton Island it suggest that they weren’t very nomadic at all.
They did travel to the Bunya Mountains when the nuts were in season but that’s about it.
They had all the seafood you could want and deep crystal clear lakes on the island to slake their thirst.
What a life.

Being nomadic does not mean you need to move vast distances, but you must move on when food resources have been used.

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Date: 20/03/2017 09:28:25
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1040555
Subject: re: Pre-agrarian villages

dv said:


Previously (ie before yesterday) I thought that the formation of permanent settlements occurred at basically the same time as the invention of agriculture, or perhaps somewhat after. The reason for the existence of villages was to maintain residence next to crops and to store the grain.

Since then I’ve learned about the Natufian culture in the Levant, which existed from around 12500 BC. They built small settlements with long-standing buildings for a few hundred people at most, but were solely hunter-gatherers. They did collect native cereals but had no pottery or other means of storing them, and no kind of agriculture until 10500 BC or thereabouts.

The Rev Dodgson said:


I wonder how many pre-agrarian villages there are below current sea level.

And what about Australia? Any evidence of ancient villages here?

The key word here is “permanent”. The closest to that in Australia would be semi-permanent, completely abandoned for months at a time then repaired and re-occupied next year. The buildings themselves weren’t particularly long-lasting.

I can’t remember hearing of any permanent village in a hunter-gatherer society. And I can think of a few agricultural societies that did not and still don’t have permanent villages.

New for me to check the web for “Natufian culture in the Levant”.

“The emergence of farming communities in the Near East was an inevitable outcome of a series of social and economic circumstances that caused the Natufian culture to be considered the threshold for this major evolutionary change. … The establishment of sedentary Natufian hamlets was followed by cultivation.”

Given the location, I think we need to check whether the scientific results are coloured by religious bias. It’s well know that the Jewish Israelites who lived in this area did not have permanent settlements.

“… pattern of seasonal mobility 18,000 to 13,000 BP”

That means no permanent settlements at that time.

“… The climatic improvement after 14,500 B.P. seems to have been responsible for the presence of more stable human habitations”

Told you climate change can be good.

“ After 13,000 or 12,800 B.P … semi-subterranean houses, referred to as pit-houses … The foundations were built of stone and the upper structure was probably brush and wood. There is no evidence of the use of mud bricks or wattle and daub.”

Like iron age Britain, only more primitive.

“… the Natufians were foragers and, perhaps, the earliest farmers”

“… Natufian base camps. Only during the Late Natufian were several larger sites established within the steppic belt. Even so, none of the larger sites ever reached the size of a large Early Neolithic village”

Doesn’t sound like a permanent settlement to me.

The end of the Natufian Period was about 11,500 BP. The transition from Gazelle (presumably hunting) to Sheep and Goats (presumably farming) happened well after, at the boundary between Neolithic A and Neolithic B, about 10,000 BP. That isn’t to say that cereal crop agriculture couldn’t have started earlier.

“Some researchers contend that sedentism was enhanced by the need to intensify cereal exploitation.”

dv said:


Previously (ie before yesterday) I thought that the formation of permanent settlements occurred at basically the same time as the invention of agriculture, or perhaps somewhat after. The reason for the existence of villages was to maintain residence next to crops and to store the grain.

Since then I’ve learned about the Natufian culture in the Levant, which existed from around 12500 BC. They built small settlements with long-standing buildings for a few hundred people at most, but were solely hunter-gatherers. They did collect native cereals but had no pottery or other means of storing them, and no kind of agriculture until 10500 BC or thereabouts.

So, in summary, I’m not buying it. The Natufian settlements were camps, not big enough or strong enough to be counted as villages, and were probably abandoned seasonally as the people moved around. Further, there is as yet no proof that the Natufians didn’t have cereal or vegetable agriculture. So we can’t yet say that permanent settlements occurred before the invention of agriculture. It could be the other way around.

The absolute key to understanding the relationship between agriculture and permanent settlements in the Levant isn’t to be found in the Natufian culture but later, in Jericho. “Jericho is thought to be the world’s first town, contained a population of up to 2,000–3,000 people, and was protected by a massive stone wall and tower.”

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