Designing New tyres

Naysayers and un-progressive Luddites please keep out of this thread, you are not on the design team.

I would like to see a new design for tyres, in which forward sensors and lasers sense the condition of the road immediately in front of the tyre, then a computer works out if any thread topology change for that tyre is needed, if any changes are needed, it then changes the surface of each tread on each tyre while that part of the tread is on the surface of the road then back again to what is was.

This might be needed for tight cornering or for oil, ice, or water on roads etc

It would require a number of advances in tyre technology.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Designing New tyres

Naysayers and un-progressive Luddites please keep out of this thread, you are not on the design team.

This might be needed for tight cornering or for oil, ice, or water on roads etc

It would require a number of advances in tyre technology.

why bother when

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_control_system

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control

are available?

ChrispenEvan said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Designing New tyres

Naysayers and un-progressive Luddites please keep out of this thread, you are not on the design team.

This might be needed for tight cornering or for oil, ice, or water on roads etc

It would require a number of advances in tyre technology.

why bother when

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_control_system

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control

are available?

ASDRs make traction control and ESC mandatory on all imported cars now

They are different systems.

tell me Tau, What tyres do you currently have on your vehicle?

Tau.Neutrino said:

Designing New tyres

Naysayers and un-progressive Luddites please keep out of this thread, you are not on the design team.

I would like to see a new design for tyres, in which forward sensors and lasers sense the condition of the road immediately in front of the tyre, then a computer works out if any thread topology change for that tyre is needed, if any changes are needed, it then changes the surface of each tread on each tyre while that part of the tread is on the surface of the road then back again to what is was.

This might be needed for tight cornering or for oil, ice, or water on roads etc

It would require a number of advances in tyre technology.

Hmm, let’s think of applications first. This would only be needed in conditions when a normal tyre fails to work or is in danger of failing. That would separate into two types of events. Racing events, there the tyres are pushed to the limit. And low-traction events. Racing events could be of as many different types as there are types of races. Low traction events would include off-roading and snow/ice.

For racing events, the most common situations would be rain and water. I can see that many racers would want to switch from slicks to treads and back again. I can see drag racers wanting to improve traction at start-up. Racers in general and drag racers in particular get some intelligence out of the tyres using thermal control, heat the tyres up enough and they glue themselves to the road like post-it notes.

For low traction events, you really want some alternative like spikes (snowmobile), cleats (tractor) or chains (heading to the snowfield). The idea of blunt retractable spikes immediately comes to mind. Embedded within the tyres they could be extended or retracted depending on road conditions. But not to be used on tarmac.

Have you given some thought to tyres on an amphibious vehicle? The mud at the bottom of the river, and the open water, are both low traction situations. Arranging cleats that extend out at the bottom of the tyre and retract in at the top converts the tyre into a paddle wheel propulsion device.

Tau.Neutrino said:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohzdF8PFo8ZFNXERO/giphy.gif

A situation where better tyre grip would help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDY5wLayYU0

mollwollfumble said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohzdF8PFo8ZFNXERO/giphy.gif

A situation where better tyre grip would help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDY5wLayYU0

no amount of tread is going to help you there.
even chains struggle on ice lice that. Rally studs are what’s needed in that situation

stumpy_seahorse said:

mollwollfumble said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

https://media.giphy.com/media/3ohzdF8PFo8ZFNXERO/giphy.gif

A situation where better tyre grip would help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDY5wLayYU0

no amount of tread is going to help you there.
even chains struggle on ice lice that. Rally studs are what’s needed in that situation

So let’s treat this as a brainstorming exercise. How do you stop ice from slipping?

1) If it’s thin, heat it so much that it turns to water, then the tread disposes of the water.
2) Ice has a Mohs hardness of 1.5. Nearly anything solid (not rubber) will cut through it.
3) Dispense salt in front of the tyre.
4) Crack it with vibration.
5) Glue yourself to it, like a post-it note.
6) Generate a glue using a chemical that reacts with ice.
7) Dispense thermite in front of the tyre.
8) Freeze it more, it’s only the thin layer of water on the ice that makes it slippery.

Which of those could a smart tyre do? All of them except the 7th?

> 2) Ice has a Mohs hardness of 1.5. Nearly anything solid (not rubber) will cut through it.

Trains deal with ice by dispensing sand in front of the wheel.

How about a tyre with a “thermochromatic lug that changes colors from white to blue when ice conditions are present”? It’s been done for shoes.

mollwollfumble said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

mollwollfumble said:

A situation where better tyre grip would help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDY5wLayYU0

no amount of tread is going to help you there.
even chains struggle on ice lice that. Rally studs are what’s needed in that situation

So let’s treat this as a brainstorming exercise. How do you stop ice from slipping?

1) If it’s thin, heat it so much that it turns to water, then the tread disposes of the water.
2) Ice has a Mohs hardness of 1.5. Nearly anything solid (not rubber) will cut through it.
3) Dispense salt in front of the tyre.
4) Crack it with vibration.
5) Glue yourself to it, like a post-it note.
6) Generate a glue using a chemical that reacts with ice.
7) Dispense thermite in front of the tyre.
8) Freeze it more, it’s only the thin layer of water on the ice that makes it slippery.

Which of those could a smart tyre do? All of them except the 7th?

or you could… I dunno…. use tyres designed for ice driving when you know you are going to be in those conditions..
I’m pretty sure you won’t be needing to switch it off if you live anywhere like the video you posted

mollwollfumble said:

How about a tyre with a “thermochromatic lug that changes colors from white to blue when ice conditions are present”? It’s been done for shoes.

Any way to modify it so it sends a signal to a warning light on the dash board?

A laser pointing on the road could read wet roads couldn’t it?

Tau.Neutrino said:

mollwollfumble said:

How about a tyre with a “thermochromatic lug that changes colors from white to blue when ice conditions are present”? It’s been done for shoes.

Any way to modify it so it sends a signal to a warning light on the dash board?

A laser pointing on the road could read wet roads couldn’t it?

could you not open your eyes and look out the window to see the ice/water on the road?..
there’s usually something that happens before the road gets wet/frozen

stumpy_seahorse said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

mollwollfumble said:

How about a tyre with a “thermochromatic lug that changes colors from white to blue when ice conditions are present”? It’s been done for shoes.

Any way to modify it so it sends a signal to a warning light on the dash board?

A laser pointing on the road could read wet roads couldn’t it?

could you not open your eyes and look out the window to see the ice/water on the road?..
there’s usually something that happens before the road gets wet/frozen

Black ice can be hard to see.

Tau.Neutrino said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Any way to modify it so it sends a signal to a warning light on the dash board?

A laser pointing on the road could read wet roads couldn’t it?

could you not open your eyes and look out the window to see the ice/water on the road?..
there’s usually something that happens before the road gets wet/frozen

Black ice can be hard to see.

Can look like a regular wet road.

Tau.Neutrino said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Any way to modify it so it sends a signal to a warning light on the dash board?

A laser pointing on the road could read wet roads couldn’t it?

could you not open your eyes and look out the window to see the ice/water on the road?..
there’s usually something that happens before the road gets wet/frozen

Black ice can be hard to see.

black ice is a completely different condition from anything you have mentioned here

stumpy_seahorse said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

could you not open your eyes and look out the window to see the ice/water on the road?..
there’s usually something that happens before the road gets wet/frozen

Black ice can be hard to see.

black ice is a completely different condition from anything you have mentioned here

I mentioned ice.

Black ice is a common road problem just like all the other common road problems.

we should just have one vehicle that does everything.

Tau.Neutrino said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Black ice can be hard to see.

black ice is a completely different condition from anything you have mentioned here

I mentioned ice.

Black ice is a common road problem just like all the other common road problems.

the same applies though.

no amount of tread will save you from black ice, you’d need spikes.
sensing and reacting is too late, you’d need a couple of seconds before (at 80kph is about 45m) for anything to be affective

ChrispenEvan said:

we should just have one vehicle that does everything.

Ill buy one, I want one that can go out into deep space as well.

ChrispenEvan said:

we should just have one vehicle that does everything.

stumpy_seahorse said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

black ice is a completely different condition from anything you have mentioned here

I mentioned ice.

Black ice is a common road problem just like all the other common road problems.

the same applies though.

no amount of tread will save you from black ice, you’d need spikes.
sensing and reacting is too late, you’d need a couple of seconds before (at 80kph is about 45m) for anything to be affective

Now with spikes that can deploy in tens of thousands of a second, maybe even faster.

Tau.Neutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

we should just have one vehicle that does everything.

Ill buy one, I want one that can go out into deep space as well.

better start doing your chores…
doubt you could afford it

Tau.Neutrino said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

I mentioned ice.

Black ice is a common road problem just like all the other common road problems.

the same applies though.

no amount of tread will save you from black ice, you’d need spikes.
sensing and reacting is too late, you’d need a couple of seconds before (at 80kph is about 45m) for anything to be affective

Now with spikes that can deploy in tens of thousands of a second, maybe even faster.

so how big is your target market?

stumpy_seahorse said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

we should just have one vehicle that does everything.

Ill buy one, I want one that can go out into deep space as well.

better start doing your chores…
doubt you could afford it

It will happen.

The design will most likely be a self healing multi deployable military vehicle criss crossing all vehicle boundaries.

Tau.Neutrino said:

stumpy_seahorse said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Ill buy one, I want one that can go out into deep space as well.

better start doing your chores…
doubt you could afford it

It will happen.

The design will most likely be a self healing multi deployable military vehicle criss crossing all vehicle boundaries.

which is the complete opposite to the current market trends

Tau.Neutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

we should just have one vehicle that does everything.

Ill buy one, I want one that can go out into deep space as well.

Tyres for deep space is a topic that I’d like to know a lot more about.

The tyres for the lunar river were wire mesh – big troubles with picking up dust.

The Tyres for Mars Rovers and for Lunokhod were cleated metal wheels like really old tractors.

I want a rubber that can be used on tyres in space.

mollwollfumble said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

we should just have one vehicle that does everything.

Ill buy one, I want one that can go out into deep space as well.

Tyres for deep space is a topic that I’d like to know a lot more about.

The tyres for the lunar river were wire mesh – big troubles with picking up dust.

The Tyres for Mars Rovers and for Lunokhod were cleated metal wheels like really old tractors.

I want a rubber that can be used on tyres in space.

Rubber is heavy and many of the attributes that make it useful for tyres are not so important for low speed on other planets.

AwesomeO said:

mollwollfumble said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Ill buy one, I want one that can go out into deep space as well.

Tyres for deep space is a topic that I’d like to know a lot more about.

The tyres for the lunar river were wire mesh – big troubles with picking up dust.

The Tyres for Mars Rovers and for Lunokhod were cleated metal wheels like really old tractors.

I want a rubber that can be used on tyres in space.

Rubber is heavy and many of the attributes that make it useful for tyres are not so important for low speed on other planets.

I hadn’t thought of weight. That’s worth thinking more about. My first reaction is that a tyre is a composite material like carbon fiber, with a rubber binder around a framework of steel or other fibres. With that in mind the rubber can be made really thin.

Low speed is a total pain. Have you realised just how abysmally slow the Curiosity river really is? Let’s make a Mars Rover that can travel at better than 100 km/hr.

mollwollfumble said:

AwesomeO said:

mollwollfumble said:

Tyres for deep space is a topic that I’d like to know a lot more about.

The tyres for the lunar river were wire mesh – big troubles with picking up dust.

The Tyres for Mars Rovers and for Lunokhod were cleated metal wheels like really old tractors.

I want a rubber that can be used on tyres in space.

Rubber is heavy and many of the attributes that make it useful for tyres are not so important for low speed on other planets.

I hadn’t thought of weight. That’s worth thinking more about. My first reaction is that a tyre is a composite material like carbon fiber, with a rubber binder around a framework of steel or other fibres. With that in mind the rubber can be made really thin.

Low speed is a total pain. Have you realised just how abysmally slow the Curiosity river really is? Let’s make a Mars Rover that can travel at better than 100 km/hr.

Is wheel technology the factor limiting speed?

mollwollfumble said:

AwesomeO said:

mollwollfumble said:

Tyres for deep space is a topic that I’d like to know a lot more about.

The tyres for the lunar river were wire mesh – big troubles with picking up dust.

The Tyres for Mars Rovers and for Lunokhod were cleated metal wheels like really old tractors.

I want a rubber that can be used on tyres in space.

Rubber is heavy and many of the attributes that make it useful for tyres are not so important for low speed on other planets.

I hadn’t thought of weight. That’s worth thinking more about. My first reaction is that a tyre is a composite material like carbon fiber, with a rubber binder around a framework of steel or other fibres. With that in mind the rubber can be made really thin.

Low speed is a total pain. Have you realised just how abysmally slow the Curiosity river really is? Let’s make a Mars Rover that can travel at better than 100 km/hr.

You wouldn’t travel over unknown ground even on earth at that speed.

AwesomeO said:

mollwollfumble said:

AwesomeO said:

Rubber is heavy and many of the attributes that make it useful for tyres are not so important for low speed on other planets.

I hadn’t thought of weight. That’s worth thinking more about. My first reaction is that a tyre is a composite material like carbon fiber, with a rubber binder around a framework of steel or other fibres. With that in mind the rubber can be made really thin.

Low speed is a total pain. Have you realised just how abysmally slow the Curiosity river really is? Let’s make a Mars Rover that can travel at better than 100 km/hr.

Is wheel technology the factor limiting speed?

Excellent question.

ChrispenEvan said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Designing New tyres

Naysayers and un-progressive Luddites please keep out of this thread, you are not on the design team.

This might be needed for tight cornering or for oil, ice, or water on roads etc

It would require a number of advances in tyre technology.

why bother when

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_control_system

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_stability_control

are available?

This.
Tau is proposing unnecessarily complex and probably unachievable tyre technology. Just use good modern electronic stability equipment, with a good 4WD system and you will rarely be in trouble.