Bush Lemon:
http://www.bushfood.net/viewtopic.php?t=824
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon

It is probably most likely that the fruit containing seeds of rootstocks in orchards is carried off into the bush by birds.. Similar to the same problem AnneS quoted in chat where rootsocks are left to grow due to loss of graft or .. simply in nursery rows. Cenchrus trifoliata for example will fruit in two to four years. So it can and does fruit in nursery rows. Many orchards suffer rootsocks growing up through the tree or in some cases completely take over the tree. There are also several other rootstocks which could have escaped to the wild and did.. . The thing is.. is that the lemons from the bush lemon are the ones that people chose to taste.. and why? Because it was closest to a real lemon. There are numerous wild lemons out there. Some yet to be tasted.

When you buy an Eureka lemon it is the same bud material which has been carried from plant to plant by millions of hands.
So.. if you find a “bush Lemon” with attributes as good or better than those which have been grafted for centuries.. then please do.. graft it onto a rootstock.. preferably several types of rootstock.. to trial.

Better still.. call me.. and I’ll come and have a look.

Anyhow.. One Eureka lemon tree for example can and will keep the whole street in lemons.
One bush lemon maybe won’t have one on it when you look.

Seriously, I am interested in anything you call a bush lemon, wild orange or whatever.. please post photos here if you do have them.

This is Capparis mitchellii. Wild Orange. It will probably not fruit in my lifetime but I’ll have time to do research with it.
Yes I grew it from seed collected and it now resides in my garden.

It isn’t actually an orange.
It tastes more like magoes.

mangoes yet?

roughbarked said:

Seriously, I am interested in anything you call a bush lemon, wild orange or whatever.. please post photos here if you do have them.

I have some seed, several years old, from a “proto” grapefruit that was given to my husband while visiting the garden of a very eccentric man who was once featured on GA. According to him it is the parent of modern day grapefruit but is not sour! I have never tried growing it in Melbourne as it’s growing preferences are tropical and I have no idea if it is still viable. If you want to give it a go you can have the seed, but if you successfully manage to grow it then I would like a plant in return in full time (perhaps grafted onto some rootstock which would help it survive more temperate climates.)

roughbarked said:

This is Capparis mitchellii. Wild Orange. It will probably not fruit in my lifetime but I’ll have time to do research with it.
Yes I grew it from seed collected and it now resides in my garden.

was there supposed to be a picture?

bluegreen said:

roughbarked said:

This is Capparis mitchellii. Wild Orange. It will probably not fruit in my lifetime but I’ll have time to do research with it.
Yes I grew it from seed collected and it now resides in my garden.

was there supposed to be a picture?

ah.. sory got distracted

bluegreen said:

roughbarked said:

Seriously, I am interested in anything you call a bush lemon, wild orange or whatever.. please post photos here if you do have them.

I have some seed, several years old, from a “proto” grapefruit that was given to my husband while visiting the garden of a very eccentric man who was once featured on GA. According to him it is the parent of modern day grapefruit but is not sour! I have never tried growing it in Melbourne as it’s growing preferences are tropical and I have no idea if it is still viable. If you want to give it a go you can have the seed, but if you successfully manage to grow it then I would like a plant in return in full time (perhaps grafted onto some rootstock which would help it survive more temperate climates.)

I’d be pleased to be given the chance to make your seeds come good if they are still able.
I’m only five or six hours away.

roughbarked said:

bluegreen said:

roughbarked said:

Seriously, I am interested in anything you call a bush lemon, wild orange or whatever.. please post photos here if you do have them.

I have some seed, several years old, from a “proto” grapefruit that was given to my husband while visiting the garden of a very eccentric man who was once featured on GA. According to him it is the parent of modern day grapefruit but is not sour! I have never tried growing it in Melbourne as it’s growing preferences are tropical and I have no idea if it is still viable. If you want to give it a go you can have the seed, but if you successfully manage to grow it then I would like a plant in return in full time (perhaps grafted onto some rootstock which would help it survive more temperate climates.)

I’d be pleased to be given the chance to make your seeds come good if they are still able.
I’m only five or six hours away.

where are you again?

bluegreen said:

roughbarked said:

bluegreen said:

roughbarked said:

Seriously, I am interested in anything you call a bush lemon, wild orange or whatever.. please post photos here if you do have them.

I have some seed, several years old, from a “proto” grapefruit that was given to my husband while visiting the garden of a very eccentric man who was once featured on GA. According to him it is the parent of modern day grapefruit but is not sour! I have never tried growing it in Melbourne as it’s growing preferences are tropical and I have no idea if it is still viable. If you want to give it a go you can have the seed, but if you successfully manage to grow it then I would like a plant in return in full time (perhaps grafted onto some rootstock which would help it survive more temperate climates.)

I’d be pleased to be given the chance to make your seeds come good if they are still able.
I’m only five or six hours away.

where are you again?

In the Heart of the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area.
I can probably arrange someone to pick up seeds or be there myself.. Are you anywhere near Ringwood?

roughbarked said:

In the Heart of the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area.
I can probably arrange someone to pick up seeds or be there myself.. Are you anywhere near Ringwood?

about 15-20 mins from Ringwood via the Eastlink (tollway) but we will be driving up to Sydney this weekend, leaving in an hour or two. Not sure if you are on route?

bluegreen said:

roughbarked said:

In the Heart of the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area.
I can probably arrange someone to pick up seeds or be there myself.. Are you anywhere near Ringwood?

about 15-20 mins from Ringwood via the Eastlink (tollway) but we will be driving up to Sydney this weekend, leaving in an hour or two. Not sure if you are on route?

You could go to Sydney via Griffith and I could meet you there but it is a long way out of your way perhaps?

roughbarked said:

bluegreen said:

roughbarked said:

In the Heart of the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Area.
I can probably arrange someone to pick up seeds or be there myself.. Are you anywhere near Ringwood?

about 15-20 mins from Ringwood via the Eastlink (tollway) but we will be driving up to Sydney this weekend, leaving in an hour or two. Not sure if you are on route?

You could go to Sydney via Griffith and I could meet you there but it is a long way out of your way perhaps?

probably a bit far out of our way for this trip. we always seems to have limited time! I could post them, there are only 5 seeds.

Sure posting them is easy I’ll have to figure out a way to give you a mailing address without telling everyone else.

roughbarked said:

Sure posting them is easy I’ll have to figure out a way to give you a mailing address without telling everyone else.

Rough i have bgs email addy i can put mine up here you email me and then your in contact with bg out of the forums. thats if you want to do it this way and same with BG. or Bg could post hers up.

veg gardener said:

roughbarked said:

Sure posting them is easy I’ll have to figure out a way to give you a mailing address without telling everyone else.

Rough i have bgs email addy i can put mine up here you email me and then your in contact with bg out of the forums. thats if you want to do it this way and same with BG. or Bg could post hers up.

you can email me at my gmail address, my ID is bevagreen and there is a dot com at the end.

thanks BG

I also use gmail.. I have too many email addy’s

By the way .. must have been early morning brain fog but I meant to say Poncirus trifoliata up above.

posted y me somewhere bushtuckerish place.. reqoted here:

Did you know that?:
Bush lemon seed is just seed from ordinary lemons
Cultivated lemons are simply selected cultivars from such seeds
The ones that grow in the wild in Australia are escapees from orchards and nurseries..
There are a few things to learn about citrus seed, seedlings and rootsocks that much of can be gleaned from this one page. http://www.ultimatecitrus.com/pdf/tncitrus.htm

One thing to know is that: rough lemon is one of the worst root stocks in regions where Phytophthora is a problem. It once was the primary root stock but has been totally replaced.

roughbarked said:

Seriously, I am interested in anything you call a bush lemon, wild orange or whatever.. please post photos here if you do have them.

What grew after the mandarin suffered the heat and wind damage:

A close-up:

and the “bush lemon”:

Oops!. Didn’t make the photos as small as I thought! Sorry

no problems Ann I saw enough at a glance to know that it was Poncirus trifoliata.. Probably the most widspead used rootstock as it is Phytophera resistant. but it isn’t the best stock for EVERY soil.

roughbarked said:

no problems Ann I saw enough at a glance to know that it was Poncirus trifoliata.. Probably the most widspead used rootstock as it is Phytophera resistant. but it isn’t the best stock for EVERY soil.

What about the “bush lemon”? Did you see it?

Yes.. It looks a lot like citrange rootstock. An old rootstock that has long been out of use due to being non-resistant to phytophera and other problems.

Apparently it grows wild on stream banks in Qld.

roughbarked said:

Yes.. It looks a lot like citrange rootstock. An old rootstock that has long been out of use due to being non-resistant to phytophera and other problems.

Apparently it grows wild on stream banks in Qld.

Considering we have fairly high temps and relatively high humidity in summer one can assume that is would be susceptible, so it obviously wouldn’t be wise to try to graft onto it.

Depends if your soils are prone to Phytophera.. Also depends if your soils are alkaline.. for Poncirus trifoliata does not perform so well on calcerous clay soil types. In these instances Citrange and others may be better than the trifoliata.
Howver your trifoliata rootstock appears to be healthy and can be grafted(budded) any time now.

You know how to do a T-bud?

Trust the seppos to do things backwards.. not that it makes any difference.. here is their way http://www.citrus-tree-care.com/propagation-by-grafting.html
I suspect this is mainly done due to many being grafted in pots on benches. I have tested both methods and it is all about angles of attack. In Australia we actually use a T cut .. Whereas in the US they use an inverted T. Still works the same though I can imagine that this allows trees to be lifted up to a height that saves back strain. However one could lie on the ground to push the bud up into the cut..
The Australian method of inserting from the top allows one to work over the nursery rows yes this can cause back strain but by leaning on one knee the team I have done a lot of work with can bud some 5,000 inapprox six hours and still manage to come back and do it day after day after day for six months of each year.
In Australia most budders use the skin only leaving the wood on the budwood stick. Generally produces a better take and stronger unions but again not necessary. I do a lot of microbudding with the wood left in. Haven’t seen any bad results with any method. Even chip buds work. However as with all grafting/budding, he stock must be in good health or the bark won’t open and if the bark does not pop open easily then your results will likely be very poor.

Apparently in Asia .. budding is done on benches in pots.. http://www.agnet.org/library/bc/52003/

My experiences with doing them in pots = a lot extra handling. This results in a drop in production for my team as mentioned above from 5,000 in he field to 500 per day in pots in the shed.

Here is what it is like in the field

Thanks for those links. I found some info on the net for grafting a couple of weeks ago and this will also help. I’ve never done any grafting but those instructions should certainly make it a bit easier. Although one website I looked at said that although the principle is clear, actually getting the technique is a bit of a challenge at first.

So now all I have to do is to is get my grafting material from somewhere. Not going to rush though. Will get my windbreak organised first (even a temporary one)

Same applies to gathering budding wood. Choose the best strong healthy fresh growths from the sunny side of the tree. Immediately snip off all leaves and spikes without cutting or bruising the buds.. cut the soft tips off the branches and discard.use only the best buds in the middle of the stick. Again if the buds don’t lift easily, you will need to either look for a healthier tree or water the one you want to get wood off copiously and allow it to grow good shoots.

budwood should be immediately soaked in water for at least a few minutes before wrapping in a moistened towel and placing in an insulated foam box until you use them(same day) or to store them keep them moist and at about 5˚C until you are ready to use them.

Two rules about buds.. don’t lay them down on hot ground while working and don’t leave the carefully wrapped buds in the sun.. always shade or fridge.

Step Five
In order to stimulate the growth of the union, the bud must be forced into growth. To force growth, cut 2/3 of the way through the rootstock about 1.5 inches above the bud and on the same side as the bud. Then push the rootstock over to lay on the ground. After the bud has grown 3 to 4 inches, the top of the rootstock can then be cut off about one inch above the top of the bud. To prevent competition from rootstock buds, they should be removed as soon as they develop.

^ this is not always true.. yes don’t allow the shoots from under the bud to out strip it in growth but.. in this kind of weather.. the tree will be happier if they are left on.. even if you just trim the tips of them so that the bud you put on has apical dominance.

As for picking up the technique.. If yu have ever sliced beans .. then you already know the technique.. just go a little shallower with the knife.

The technique for removing a bud without the wood is to cut the longitudinal cut then twist the knife sideways and cut a score line horizontally at the point you want to remove the bud. This cut must go right through the bark but not so far as to cut the wood. Then with your other hand or.. if you can manage it while still hanging on to the knife, take the forefinger and thumb each side of the bud and squeze lift pop off comes the bud.. practice that a few times before you actually use a bruised bud .. because bruised buds don’t work so well. Slipping the bud under the bark is the same deal.. when you cut the vertical it is just a line on the bark but the horizontal needs the knife to be twisted slightly as you cut it so that you can see the bark pop and the ends where the horizontal cut was made start to curl back a bit.. If all the conditions are good the bud should easily push into the neat under bark pocket you have made .. without needing to be excessively forced and without needing to sit there trying to pry the park open with the knife.. Its a simple and smooth operation. If you know these things it should take no longer than 3 seconds. The tying of the budding tape is a totally different consideration. This is a whole new skill and it is also the making or the breaking of the graft itself. Yes a T bud is capable of healing without tying but only if the tree is constantly well watered and the weather is amenable. The thing is about percentages. If you do one graft and it fails it is 100% failure., vice versa if it takes and everyone knows there is no such thing as 100% success.. Success usually costs something.. and in the case of grafting it is diligence and back pain, the odd sliced digit .. and sunburn if you take too long about it.

there is an old Italian story I will relate to help you comprehend the importance of tying.. or bandaging the wound.

In Italy in the days of lords and peasants(has it changed?). The orchardist would call in the grafter and the grafter would bring a labourer to tie up each graft(we’ll call him tyer). The grafter got the royal treatment.. Table food wine all laid out.. the tyer got a bottle of water and some shade to sit under if he was lucky. However it takes more than the ordinary unskilled peasant to do this simple task. So one day the tyer decided to do something about it.
In the mornings he did his work diligently. After lunch, every second graft.. he tied it up well but then he grabbed hold of it and moved it.
No big deal everything looked OK. They finished and went home.

The next year, the farmer was irate.. Whatsa matter ayou? Normally all good but thisa time they are all a bigga mess!
Th grafter stood his ground and said. “well I always do my work well you know that, it must have been the tyer’s fault.” So he farmer asks the tyer. and the tyer replies, “well don’t ask me boss I did my work diligently .. look you can still see that this one is tied as well as that one.. “. The farmer examines it and asks “well what caused it then?” The tyer replies, look I don’t mean to offend you but every lunchtime you bring him wine and food. and each day after lunch his mind is addled and his hands a little unsteady.”

so.. next day.. no table no food no wine.. and the grafter has to sit under the tree with the tyer.. drinking water.

So the moral of that story is.. No matter how well you master the techniques involved in budding, it is all useless unless you either have mastered tying up your own work or.. you train and treat the tyer as if he is as important as you.

start with proper budding tape .. costs about 2 bucks for a roll and that will do up to 500 trees. Can get it at any reputable agricultural/horticultural/garden centre.

Practice wrapping it around branches.. you can use the same piece of tape until you get it right. You must start tight. meaning the first wrap you have to hold.. like putting your finger in the middle of the string to tie a knot on a parcel .. one of your fingers has to hold the first turn while the other fingers wrap tape..
Once the first turn is securely held by the second then you can proceed keeping a tension on the tape as you go overlap from the bottom up to the top making sure that the tape overlaps all the way up.. no air gaps.

Lose a fraction of tension as you pass over the bud itself.. don’t want to choke it to death do we?.. Move on up until all the cut is covered.. to tie off just give the tape a slight twist and slip the end under the last loop and pull tight by making sure that no air gaps ensue .. You will find this a roundward pull.. if you get my rotation on that.

See.. it is easy! ;)

not all that easy I can assure you..

Slipping of tape often causes bud to slip out or to cause exudations from the bark to make it even more slippery, causing even greater frustration.
So it is important to get to learn how to start the tape so that it does not slip.

I didn’t tell you that you do need a razor sharp knife to do the budding or grafting with.

Have fun.

This shot shows buds cleaned for use, knife, tape. Also shows the size of the thorns on Poncirus trifliata.

Of course. if you are going to move from yard to yard . You should sterilise all equipment… between..

It is wise to get certified budwood. However this is often available nearby.. in that a friend also purchased the mandarin you wanted from a registered nursery..
As long as the tree is healthy with no apparent virus. Then taking buds from their yard to yours should not be a problem.