Date: 22/03/2017 08:33:19
From: Cymek
ID: 1041349
Subject: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

The planetarium hypothesis, conceived in 2001 by Stephen Baxter, attempts to provide a solution to the Fermi paradox by holding that our astronomical observations represent an illusion, created by a Type III civilization capable of manipulating matter and energy on galactic scales. He postulates that we do not see evidence of extraterrestrial life because the universe has been engineered so that it appears empty of other life

How would an alien civilisation create such an illusion ?
I imagine it would be easier to maintain it for instrument scanning than an actual probe that may cross the illusion threshold

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Date: 22/03/2017 08:51:20
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1041350
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

Cymek said:


The planetarium hypothesis, conceived in 2001 by Stephen Baxter, attempts to provide a solution to the Fermi paradox by holding that our astronomical observations represent an illusion, created by a Type III civilization capable of manipulating matter and energy on galactic scales. He postulates that we do not see evidence of extraterrestrial life because the universe has been engineered so that it appears empty of other life

How would an alien civilisation create such an illusion ?
I imagine it would be easier to maintain it for instrument scanning than an actual probe that may cross the illusion threshold

I sense the hand of god in all this.

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Date: 22/03/2017 08:55:58
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1041352
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

Cymek said:


The planetarium hypothesis, conceived in 2001 by Stephen Baxter, attempts to provide a solution to the Fermi paradox by holding that our astronomical observations represent an illusion, created by a Type III civilization capable of manipulating matter and energy on galactic scales. He postulates that we do not see evidence of extraterrestrial life because the universe has been engineered so that it appears empty of other life

How would an alien civilisation create such an illusion ?
I imagine it would be easier to maintain it for instrument scanning than an actual probe that may cross the illusion threshold

Easiest way could be akin to a “denial of service” attack.

Cover up genuine alien signals by pseudorandom noise.

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Date: 22/03/2017 08:57:47
From: Cymek
ID: 1041353
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

PermeateFree said:


Cymek said:

The planetarium hypothesis, conceived in 2001 by Stephen Baxter, attempts to provide a solution to the Fermi paradox by holding that our astronomical observations represent an illusion, created by a Type III civilization capable of manipulating matter and energy on galactic scales. He postulates that we do not see evidence of extraterrestrial life because the universe has been engineered so that it appears empty of other life

How would an alien civilisation create such an illusion ?
I imagine it would be easier to maintain it for instrument scanning than an actual probe that may cross the illusion threshold

I sense the hand of god in all this.

They would be a god if they could do such a thing

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Date: 22/03/2017 08:59:54
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1041354
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

Cymek said:


The planetarium hypothesis, conceived in 2001 by Stephen Baxter, attempts to provide a solution to the Fermi paradox by holding that our astronomical observations represent an illusion, created by a Type III civilization capable of manipulating matter and energy on galactic scales. He postulates that we do not see evidence of extraterrestrial life because the universe has been engineered so that it appears empty of other life

How would an alien civilisation create such an illusion ?
I imagine it would be easier to maintain it for instrument scanning than an actual probe that may cross the illusion threshold

Magic.

:-)

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Date: 22/03/2017 09:02:15
From: dv
ID: 1041355
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

Cymek said:


The planetarium hypothesis, conceived in 2001 by Stephen Baxter, attempts to provide a solution to the Fermi paradox by holding that our astronomical observations represent an illusion, created by a Type III civilization capable of manipulating matter and energy on galactic scales. He postulates that we do not see evidence of extraterrestrial life because the universe has been engineered so that it appears empty of other life

How would an alien civilisation create such an illusion ?
I imagine it would be easier to maintain it for instrument scanning than an actual probe that may cross the illusion threshold

?

We would not expect to detect technologies on other planets even if they were a fair bit more advanced than ours unless they were deliberately trying to communicate with us. They don’t need to “manipulate matter and energy on galactic scales” to hide from us. Transmitting a detectable signal from one star to another would be hard as nuts, you wouldn’t do it by accident.

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Date: 22/03/2017 09:08:26
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1041356
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws

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Date: 22/03/2017 09:12:30
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1041357
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

To really answer this question we need to see what the heck Steven Baxter was talking about. A preview exists on the web at:

http://www.jbis.org.uk/preview/2001.54.210.jpg

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Date: 22/03/2017 09:13:02
From: Cymek
ID: 1041358
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

Lets say the sky was teeming with massive stellar engineering projects that would be detectable by a civilisation at our technological level how could you hide them. I also imagine it would need to be adaptive to cope with our technological advancement

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Date: 22/03/2017 09:13:49
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1041359
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

ChrispenEvan said:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws

Well I guess someone could be just F’ing us around.

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Date: 22/03/2017 09:14:44
From: dv
ID: 1041360
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

Honestly, I think the first paragraph of the introduction is bollocks. Anything we know about the universe is compatible with the concept that the number of technological civilisations in existence right now is 1. Numeric one. Uno.

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Date: 22/03/2017 09:18:30
From: Cymek
ID: 1041361
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

dv said:


Honestly, I think the first paragraph of the introduction is bollocks. Anything we know about the universe is compatible with the concept that the number of technological civilisations in existence right now is 1. Numeric one. Uno.

Most likely but hypothesis is interesting even if bullocks

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Date: 22/03/2017 09:18:36
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1041362
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

Cymek said:


The planetarium hypothesis, conceived in 2001 by Stephen Baxter, attempts to provide a solution to the Fermi paradox by holding that our astronomical observations represent an illusion, created by a Type III civilization capable of manipulating matter and energy on galactic scales. He postulates that we do not see evidence of extraterrestrial life because the universe has been engineered so that it appears empty of other life

How would an alien civilisation create such an illusion ?
I imagine it would be easier to maintain it for instrument scanning than an actual probe that may cross the illusion threshold

Ahhh, it’s really about dark matter. Taps nose.

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Date: 22/03/2017 09:44:53
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1041381
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

So, what Stephen Baxter proposed was a virtual reality emulation that not just masked alien civilizations but also generated most of the stars we see with telescopes, including all the galaxies.

He proved that it wasn’t possible. At least not if the sphere of reality approached 100 light years.

(Side note, the cheapest and easiest way to hide the existence of alien civilizations is very much easier than this, just hypnotise a hundred or so important people. A single hypnotist could do it, for a negligible fee).

Now, suppose we’re in a planetarium, that immediately begs the question how small it could be. Obviously the smallest would be a virtual reality pod like in “the matrix”. Next step up would be a “Truman Show” size planetarium. Beyond that say a planetarium around the Earth. A Dyson sphere around the Earth coul have video projection screens around the inside.

Make the Dyson sphere porous in the sense that it would capture spacecraft, but continue to send out spacecraft emulation signals.

Of course, a key factor is pixel size. You may care to note that Baxter is wrong here, the number of pixels required is independent of the distance from the telescope to the Dyson sphere. That’s because all that matters is the telescope limit on angular resolution. You can calculate the number of pixels required for a perfect simulation directly from the telescope’s​ angular resolution.

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Date: 22/03/2017 10:21:01
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1041389
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

Darn, lost post due to lost internet. Take it as a given that the post that should be here is long, insightful, cogent, and thorough.

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Date: 22/03/2017 10:25:46
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1041394
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

mollwollfumble said:


Darn, lost post due to lost internet. Take it as a given that the post that should be here is long, insightful, cogent, and thorough.

I just had a game of Klondike Solitaire, to find there was no ace of clubs. Happened the other day too with a different ace, so have now deleted the game.

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Date: 23/03/2017 01:07:21
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1041507
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

mollwollfumble said:


So, what Stephen Baxter proposed was a virtual reality emulation that not just masked alien civilizations but also generated most of the stars we see with telescopes, including all the galaxies.

He proved that it wasn’t possible. At least not if the sphere of reality approached 100 light years.

(Side note, the cheapest and easiest way to hide the existence of alien civilizations is very much easier than this, just hypnotise a hundred or so important people. A single hypnotist could do it, for a negligible fee).

Now, suppose we’re in a planetarium, that immediately begs the question how small it could be. Obviously the smallest would be a virtual reality pod like in “the matrix”. Next step up would be a “Truman Show” size planetarium. Beyond that say a planetarium around the Earth. A Dyson sphere around the Earth coul have video projection screens around the inside.

Make the Dyson sphere porous in the sense that it would capture spacecraft, but continue to send out spacecraft emulation signals.

Of course, a key factor is pixel size. You may care to note that Baxter is wrong here, the number of pixels required is independent of the distance from the telescope to the Dyson sphere. That’s because all that matters is the telescope limit on angular resolution. You can calculate the number of pixels required for a perfect simulation directly from the telescope’s​ angular resolution.

Trying again.

Now let’s consider how to build a planetarium big enough to contain the real solar system. Toss in a non-periodic comet now and again to relieve the tedium, absorb a spacecraft now and again and keep sending signals you think the spacecraft would have produced.

A planetarium here on Earth typically has a single central projector and a white screen. But that’s very energy inefficient for an alien system. It’s a bad strategy both because of the loss die to the inverse square law between projector and screen and because of the scattering by the matt p[aint on the screen itself. That, like radar, gives an inverse fourth power for energy, which is awful.

Better is to have light emitted directly by the screen, that reduces the energy loss to an inverse square law, much better and, by having each pixel shining through a telescope operating backwards, a narrow beam of light is generated and no energy is wasted by having light shining in a direction other than Earth. A slow movement of telescopes around the Dyson sphere would be used to simulate the lateral motion of the stars, the proper motion and the parallax, the orbits of binary and multiple star systems. Timed to match the orbit of the Earth, the artificial parallax would be used to make the stars look much further away.

Now for galaxies. A more conventional projection screen would be used but, instead of a single central projector, use a single projector for each galaxy or galaxy cluster much closer to the screen, sited on a rigid framework. Don’t use matt paint on the screen, too inefficient, make the screen from cube corner reflectors that reflect the light back past the projector towards Earth.

What, you may ask, of other wavelengths? What of directly imaged exoplanets and nebulosities such as that associated with Mira? Other wavelengths are easy, detectors in orbit around Earth have low resolution and some (such as midrange UV) are blocked completely. For imaged exoplanets and nebulosities put a projector on the back of the appropriate telescope to display the desired image on the screen behind.

The challenges in that engineering scenario for an alien civilization are two. One is that it would be extremely difficult to build a Dyson sphere that large. The second is that telescope technology on Earth is advancing so fast at present. For example, the bright stars can be seen from Cassini at Saturn, so some projections have to face Saturn as well as Earth.

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Date: 23/03/2017 02:15:12
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1041515
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

See above for genuine answer, but let’s repeat the sssf inspirational posted here.

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Date: 23/03/2017 19:17:45
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1041862
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

> Now let’s consider how to build a planetarium big enough to contain the real solar system. Toss in a non-periodic comet now and again to relieve the tedium, absorb a spacecraft now and again and keep sending signals you think the spacecraft would have produced.

> It would be extremely difficult to build a Dyson sphere that large.

Building the Dyson sphere. There’s always been a battle in my mind between two different approaches to structural engineering, the truss or the shell. One day I’d like to sit down and compare the two. The shell has the great advantage that 3-D curvature makes it exceptionally strong, limited only by spherical buckling. The shell has the great disadvantage that it can’t be constructed easily, both because of the 3-D curvature and because calculations can give element thicknesses so small that can’t be achieved with current fabrication methods. The shell honeycomb is a variant of the shell where the middle thickness is almost empty. To overcome buckling on all length scales with a shell honeycomb a fractal structure would have to be cast.

Materials – choose something string and cheap. Like diamond, but without the brittleness.

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Date: 24/03/2017 00:50:11
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1041881
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

I’m with dv on this one.

Why would someone state a supposed “paradox”, provide the resolution to the paradox in the opening paragraph, then just ignore that resolution and come up with a highly impractical version of an alternative specific resolution, for which there is (and can be) no evidence?

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Date: 24/03/2017 02:42:52
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1041946
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

mollwollfumble said:


Darn, lost post due to lost internet. Take it as a given that the post that should be here is long, insightful, cogent, and thorough.

Nice post.

I’ll give it some thought.

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Date: 24/03/2017 02:49:32
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1041948
Subject: re: Planetarium hypothesis, how could it be done

:-)

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