Date: 5/05/2017 06:20:52
From: Ian
ID: 1061142
Subject: Grand vs Upright Pianos

Rehashed from Chat -

Ian said:

Grand v upright piano

The Rev Dodgson said:

QI, but I don’t get the bit about the bass strings sounding richer on the grand piano that has shorter strings than a tall upright, because it is “well designed”.

Why can’t someone make a well designed upright that has equally rich sounding bass strings?

Ian said:

Pitch is a function of length and stiffness of the string and tension.

As to your question.. I should know…. something to do with the extra copper windings.

The Rev Dodgson said:

OK, but if length is important why doesn’t the tall upright with longer strings than the short grand sound richer than the short grand?

The Rev Dodgson said:

I’m talking about the grand that he said had shorter strings than a tall upright, but still sounded better because it was “well designed”.

Ian said:

I reckon that quality “studio uprights” do compare well with short grands.

furious said:

  • I’m talking about the grand that he said had shorter strings than a tall upright, but still sounded better because it was “well designed”.

Maybe it is “well designed” simply because it is not upright? Maybe the difference in sound is due to gravity…

Peak Warming Man said:

The honky tonk seems to be only ever played on an upright.

Actually this could be threadworthy.

Bubblecar said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

OK, but if length is important why doesn’t the tall upright with longer strings than the short grand sound richer than the short grand?

Could be lots of reasons related to the overall design, or, it might not necessarily be true.

Ian said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Ian said:

A concert grand is 9 foot.. stand it up….

I’m talking about the grand that he said had shorter strings than a tall upright, but still sounded better because it was “well designed”.

I disagree.

Ian said:


Stuart and Sons, an Australian piano manufacturer, now makes a “super” grand piano that features 102 keys, 14 more than the norm. This out into the range where it’s clicks one end and stirred mud the other yet the makers claim that even if you don’t play them the extra keys resonate and add to the quality of the sound. They also chuck in a forth pedal for your other foot.

It also has a radical bridge design…

The principle of vertical string coupling is at the core of the Stuart design concept. This principle focuses on how the string is anchored to the bridge and soundboard. In the standard piano the string is anchored horizontally between two pins. This system leads to variable decay characteristics in the sound due to ‘cross polarization’ as the string changes the direction of its vibrations from the initial vertical hammer strike to the more horizontal later vibrations. In the Stuart piano a sophisticated device couples the strings to the bridge in the vertical plane, the same direction of the hammer’s strike. This encourages the vibrations to stay in the initial strike plane which produces a clearer, cleaner and more sustained sound with greater dynamic control. There is little doubt in my mind this new sound is more sympathetic to the repertoire from the Impressionists onwards. It offers the characteristics needed to realize the essential ethos in these new forms of expression, such as clarity, minimal frequency masking (muddiness) and long sustain. The increased dynamic range and an extraordinary sensitivity to different music styles make the instrument almost chameleon-like – the sound works effectively in all styles of piano repertoire. The challenge is for the player to be sufficiently open minded to want to discover and realize these mysteries.

.

I’d like to run my fingers over one.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 06:34:14
From: Ian
ID: 1061148
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

The source of the sound on the piano is the strings, which are stretched tightly over the cast-iron frame. When struck by the hammers, the strings vibrate, producing their recognizable sound. The piano “strings” are actually made of high-tensile steel wire. The strings come in a variety of lengths and diameters, and can be either plain or wound. According to the physics of sound, when the length of a string is doubled, its pitch is lowered by an octave. If all the strings in the piano were the same diameter, the bass strings would need to be over 30 feet long! The solution to this problem is to gradually increase the diameter, or gauge, of each string. The high treble strings are the thinnest – usually about 0.7 mm thick. The gauge and length of the strings gradually increase as the pitch gets lower. The string gauge reaches about 1.4 mm in the area around middle C. After a certain point, increasing the gauge of the strings can cause the strings to become stiff, adversely affecting the sound. At this point (an octave or so below middle C), the strings change from plain steel wire to a steel wire core wound with copper wire. The copper winding increases the mass of the string, without noticeably changing its stiffness. This allows the string to vibrate at a lower pitch without having to dramatically increase its length. In the extreme bass, the strings may have a double winding of copper.

http://www.piano.christophersmit.com/strings.html

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Date: 5/05/2017 06:39:42
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1061149
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

Low vs high tension can make a big difference to the sustain and the overall richness of sound. Steinway always claim their distinctive sound is due to relatively low tension stringing.

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Date: 5/05/2017 06:41:19
From: Ian
ID: 1061150
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

Modern upright action

The action mechanism of a key consists of the key itself and all its appurtenances. A key appurtenances include a see-saw like leverage-system, the escapement, a supplementary device for Repetition, and a check for hammer rebound. The illustration to the right is of a circa 1907 Wessell, Nickel and Gross Upright action; the parts are listed below.

Ky, is the Key in its resting position.

c, wherever found, represents a cushion of felt or soft leather upon which the different parts of the action rest or come in contact with each other. Their purpose is that of rendering the action noiseless and easy of operation.

Bnc R, shows the end of the balance rail, extending the entire length of the keyboard.

B P, is the balance pin. This is a perfectly round pin driven firmly in the balance rail. The bottom of the hole in the key fits closely around the balance pin; at the top, it is the shape of a mortise, parallel with the key, which allows the key to move only in the direction intended. The mortise in the wooden cap on top of the key at this point is lined with bushing cloth which holds the key in position laterally, and prevents looseness and rattling, yet allows the key to move easily.

L, is the lead put in this portion of the key to balance it, and to ensure uniformity of “touch,” and quick and certain return of key to its rest position. As there is more or less difference in the length of keys, and also in the weight of the hammers operated by them, some keys are leaded much more heavily than others. In some cases the lead is inserted in the extreme back end of the key; in others it is put near the balance rail according to the requirement. In some actions the lead is omitted entirely; but in the best actions it is almost invariably present. In the action of the grand piano the keys are leaded in front of the balance rail instead of back of it. This is because, in the grand piano, the hammer rests in a horizontal position and its whole weight must be actually lifted and the force of gravity overcome, while in the upright, the hammer rests in a vertical position, only requiring to be thrown forward.

G P, is the guide pin, generally of oval shape, with the longest diameter in line with the key. The hole in the lower portion of the key, in which the guide pin works, is bushed with bushing cloth and is made to fit so closely that the key will not move laterally, yet not so tightly that the key will not work easily.

Bm, is a wooden block called the bottom; sometimes called the key-rocker. It is held in position by the two screws shown in cut by which it can be adjusted or regulated.

E, is the extension communicating the motion of the key to the upper part of the action. There are various ways in which the extension is connected to the bottom. In this action, the extension is made round at the lower end and fits snugly into a hole in the bottom upon a felt disc. When the action is taken out, the extensions simply lift out of the holes, and when it is put back it is necessary to enter each one in its place. In other actions, the upper side of the bottom where the extension rests has no hole but simply a felt covering upon which the extension rests; in this case it is necessary to provide what is called an extension guide which is hinged to the extension guide rail shown in the cut at the left of the extension. In actions of this kind, the extensions remain in place at all times and the trouble of placing them properly on the bottom when replacing the action is obviated. Other methods also are employed which are readily understood upon slight examination, but are essentially similar to the above. Instead of the bottom, a capstan screw is used in some actions as follows:

Cpn, is a capstan screw used in some actions in place of the bottom. It is turned by inserting a pointed instrument in one of the four holes, thus raising or lowering the capstan in regulating. The lower end of the extension is felted. In such actions the extension is invariably provided with the extension guide.

B, is the metal action bracket. The bracket is one solid piece of metal. There are generally four brackets in the upright action. The brackets rest on supports in and at the sides of the keybed, and are secured at the top by large bolts,

BB, which go through the metal plate and into the wooden frame or pin block. At the top of each bracket is an opening to receive this bolt and a thumbscrew (not shown in the cut, being behind the hammer) which fastens the action securely in position.

M R, is the main rail; so called because the main constituents of the action are attached to it. (Everything designated as “rail” in the action runs the entire length of the action in one solid piece.)

W, is the wippen. Those pieces upon which or by which the small letter g is shown are the flanges. The one at the left of the wippen is called the wippen flange. It is made fast to the main rail by a screw, and upon it the wippen is hinged by means of a “center-pin” at the lower end. The center-pin in the wippen is driven through a hole in which it fits tightly and immovably in the middle part, and it (the center-pin) is consequently stationary in the wippen. The flange extends down at the sides of the wippen and the holes in flange are made large enough to receive bushing cloth in which the center-pin works freely but not loosely. All flange joints are of this nature; some, however, are provided with a means for tightening the center-pin in the middle portion of the joint.

j, is the jack. The purpose of the jack is to communicate the motion of the wippen to the hammer. The precise adjustment of the jack and the adjacent parts upon which it depends for its exact movements, play an important part in regulating the “touch” of the piano.

js, jack spring. Its purpose is to hold the jack inward against the “nose” or “heel” of the hammer butt. (See Bt, hammer butt.)

Rr, regulating rail. The regulating button is shown attached to the rail by the regulating screw which is turned by means of its ring on top of Rr. The purpose of the regulating button is to throw the point of the jack out of the nose of the hammer butt, and allow the hammer to rebound from the string. If the button is too high, it does not throw or trip the jack in time to prevent blocking. When the button is too low, it disengages too soon, and much of the force of the key is lost before it reaches the hammer.

BR, is the block rail, felted on the side next to the jack which strikes against it when thrown from nose. This rail is absent in some actions, in which case the back of the jack is felted and strikes against the “back catch,” which is also felted on inner side. (The back catch has no mark in the cut, but is explained below in connection with the “back check.”)

BC, is the back check which is simply a piece of wood with a thick piece of felt glued to the inner face and suspended on a wire.

BCW, back check wire supporting the back check, and screwed to the wippen. The purpose of the back check is to check the hammer by coming in contact with the “back catch” (the backward projection of the butt), at a short distance from the string in its return, and prevent the hammer from falling entirely back to its rest position, thereby preventing quick repetition.

Bl, bridle. This is a piece of tape about an eighth of an inch wide with a piece of leather glued to the end and a hole near the end for the point of the “stirrup” or bridle wire. The cut shows where the bridle is fastened in the hammer butt by being put into the hole in the butt, and the back catch stem covered with glue and driven in by it which precludes all possibility of its coming loose. The bridle passes through a hole in the lower part of the back catch. Its purpose is to assist the hammer to return quickly by hanging to it with the weight of the wippen, extension, jack, etc., when the key is released. Thus the bridle becomes the main factor in the matter of quick repetition.

Bl W, bridle wire, screwed into wippen, bent in the shape of a buckle at top to hold bridle.

Bt, butt; or, more specifically, hammer butt. In some cheap actions the butt is joined to its flange g, by the means described under the head of wippen flange; but in this action the center-pin is held firmly in the butt by a small strip of brass containing a set screw; somewhat obscure in the cut, but discernible. All center-pins turn in the flange and not in the middle part.

HS, hammer shank in rest position.

H, hammer showing wood body or head, and covering of two layers of felt.

H R, hammer rail, resting on felt cushion, c, glued to rail or bracket. The hammer rail is held in position by the rod, shown under the hammer shank, which is hinged to the bracket at the lower end, and which allows it to be moved forward when the soft pedal is used. The soft pedal communicates with this rail by a rod which moves it forward and thereby shortens the stroke of the hammers and produces a softer tone.

sr, spring rail screwed to the brackets. This rail supports the light wire springs which assist the hammers in returning to rest position.

S, string.

D, is the damper head secured to the damper wire by a set screw.

DL, damper lever, working in damper flange g, which is screwed to main rail.

s, spoon; so called from its shape. It is screwed into the wippen. When the key is struck, the motion on the wippen throws the spoon forward, pushing the lower end of damper lever forward, and releasing the damper from its contact with the string. The damper is held against the string by the wire spring which is seen running from the damper flange to the top of the damper lever.

DR, damper rod. This is a rod running from the left or bass end of the action to the right as far as the dampers are continued in the treble. It is acted upon by the “loud” or damper pedal, which raises the outer projection, and by being hinged to the main rail about the same height as this projection, the entire rod is thrown outward against the lower ends of the damper levers, releasing all the dampers simultaneously. This being the only office of the right pedal, it is readily seen that this pedal does not increase the loudness, but simply sustains any number of tones struck successively, giving the effect of more volume.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 06:41:27
From: Ian
ID: 1061151
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

Modern grand action

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Date: 5/05/2017 06:43:08
From: roughbarked
ID: 1061152
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

You left out my post about needing high ceilings. :(

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:10:13
From: Ian
ID: 1061171
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

roughbarked said:


You left out my post about needing high ceilings. :(

There were bound to be losses.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:11:24
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1061174
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

Ian said:


roughbarked said:

You left out my post about needing high ceilings. :(

There were bound to be losses.

Please explain your post about high ceilings.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:13:08
From: roughbarked
ID: 1061177
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

The Rev Dodgson said:


Ian said:

roughbarked said:

You left out my post about needing high ceilings. :(

There were bound to be losses.

Please explain your post about high ceilings.

Think it went back to where you actually asked why vertical pianos couldn’t have strings as long.

I’ll search for it if you want me to.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:15:13
From: Ian
ID: 1061182
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

roughbarked said:

:)

(at some point)

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:20:27
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1061190
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

roughbarked said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Ian said:

There were bound to be losses.

Please explain your post about high ceilings.

Think it went back to where you actually asked why vertical pianos couldn’t have strings as long.

I’ll search for it if you want me to.

I thought you’d misunderstood what I said.

I didn’t ask that. In the video the guy says that there is a grand piano that has shorter bass strings than a tall upright, but it still sounds better than an upright because it was well designed. So the question was, why can’t the uprights be well designed as well.

i.e. is there something about the horizontal strings that makes them sound better, or was it just prejudice in favour of grands, or are there really no uprights designed and built to the same high standards as the best grands?

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:22:46
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1061195
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

The Rev Dodgson said:


i.e. is there something about the horizontal strings that makes them sound better, or was it just prejudice in favour of grands, or are there really no uprights designed and built to the same high standards as the best grands?

red wine tastes better than white chocolate

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:25:03
From: roughbarked
ID: 1061198
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

The Rev Dodgson said:


roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Please explain your post about high ceilings.

Think it went back to where you actually asked why vertical pianos couldn’t have strings as long.

I’ll search for it if you want me to.

I thought you’d misunderstood what I said.

I didn’t ask that. In the video the guy says that there is a grand piano that has shorter bass strings than a tall upright, but it still sounds better than an upright because it was well designed. So the question was, why can’t the uprights be well designed as well.

i.e. is there something about the horizontal strings that makes them sound better, or was it just prejudice in favour of grands, or are there really no uprights designed and built to the same high standards as the best grands?

I’m not going to try and sound like a piano designing engineer because you know I’m not.

I think you need to hark back to where this all started. It came about when I showed a video link or two to the number of sounds created from a larger number of impacts that could not be separated from the one sound. In relation to watch escapements. ie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmk2mA6dg3o

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:25:46
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1061200
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

SCIENCE said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

i.e. is there something about the horizontal strings that makes them sound better, or was it just prejudice in favour of grands, or are there really no uprights designed and built to the same high standards as the best grands?

red wine tastes better than white chocolate

Undoubtedly.

But does 6 year old red wine in a bottle with a cork necessarily taste better than 7 year old red wine in a screw top?

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:27:06
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1061202
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

roughbarked said:


I think you need to hark back to where this all started. It came about when I showed a video link or two to the number of sounds created from a larger number of impacts that could not be separated from the one sound. In relation to watch escapements. ie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmk2mA6dg3o

Didn’t see that :)

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:29:51
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1061206
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

The Rev Dodgson said:


SCIENCE said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

i.e. is there something about the horizontal strings that makes them sound better, or was it just prejudice in favour of grands, or are there really no uprights designed and built to the same high standards as the best grands?

red wine tastes better than white chocolate

Undoubtedly.

But does 6 year old red wine in a bottle with a cork necessarily taste better than 7 year old red wine in a screw top?

More likely dependent on the vintage and cork quality.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:31:03
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1061207
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

The Rev Dodgson said:


i.e. is there something about the horizontal strings that makes them sound better, or was it just prejudice in favour of grands, or are there really no uprights designed and built to the same high standards as the best grands?

As that video explained, the action makes quite a lot of difference, such that fine pianists rarely play uprights.

As to string length, the relationship of the chosen strings and their tension to the length of string, the location the string is struck by which kind of action, the quality of the soundboard and casing etc will all make a difference to the quality of sound.

Just having longer strings won’t necessarily mean a better sound, although it usually does in good full-size grands.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:32:11
From: dv
ID: 1061211
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

Some people, such as my daughter, prefer white chocolate to red wine.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:32:25
From: Ian
ID: 1061213
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

History

The piano action was the key new addition that Bartolomeo Cristofori created when he invented the piano in 1700. Other than in the action, the first pianos were quite similar in construction to contemporary harpsichords. With the piano, a hammer strikes the string, whereas with a harpsichord, a mechanism plucks the string. Cristofori’s action already embodied many of the principles still found in 2000-era actions. It used levers to magnify the small motion of the piano key into a large motion of the hammer, and was arranged so that the very last part of the hammer’s motion before striking the string would be purely the result of inertia and not propelled by the key; this prevents the key from pressing the felt-covered hammer firmly into the string, which would damp and stop the string vibrations and the sound…

The 2000s-era grand action is a distant descendent of Cristofori’s original. It emerged from the work in the 1770s of Americus Backers, who established the normal action for English pianos. In the 19th century, the English action was further modified by French builders, notably in the invention of the repetition lever, which facilitated rapidly repeating notes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_%28piano%29

————

The Repetition Mechanism

The repetition mechanism is (as its name suggests) the part of the escapement action that allows the piano to quickly repeat a note without having to completely reset the action to its original position. The repetition lever accomplishes this by using a spring to push the hammer back into position, allowing the jack to reset under the hammer knuckle.

The repetition lever, also called the balancier, (1) is attached to the wippen – When the key is depressed by the pianist, the wippen is raised, which in turn raises the repetition lever and jack. The repetition lever pushes up on the hammer, until the leather pad (2) on the top of the repetition lever comes into contact with the drop screw. At this same point, the jack comes into contact with the let-off button and is rotated from under the hammer knuckle and stops against the jack stop felt (3) which is affixed to the bottom of the repetition lever. When the hammer hits the string and rebounds in the opposite direction, the hammer knuckle forces the repetition lever downward, rotating the lever on the repetition lever flange (4) and compressing the repetition spring (5). When the key is partially released, this spring pushes the repetition lever back up, pushing the hammer back into position for a repeated strike. When at rest, the repetition lever is held at the proper position by the repetition lever regulating button (6), which has a felt pad (7) that rests against the wippen. The position of the repetition lever can be precisely adjusted with the repetition lever regulating screw (8).

Animation of repitition mechanism

.

Grand Piano How it Works

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:33:51
From: macx
ID: 1061215
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

The sound board and its geometery are critical in the production and projection of sound in a piano, The sound indeed radiated from the sound board and not simply as a string in tension in free air. This now allows for a complex mix of harmonics which determine the timbre and “quality” of the instrument. The string length while important is almost a minor player. Most sound boards are of pine construction and this has often proven difficult in Australia due to the extremes of temperature and humidity alterning the parameters of the board, many times leading to cracking of the board and the loss of tonal quality of the instrument.

macx

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:34:12
From: roughbarked
ID: 1061216
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

PermeateFree said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

SCIENCE said:

red wine tastes better than white chocolate

Undoubtedly.

But does 6 year old red wine in a bottle with a cork necessarily taste better than 7 year old red wine in a screw top?

More likely dependent on the vintage and cork quality.

Not upon whether the bottle is laying down or standing up?

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:35:21
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1061217
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

The Rev Dodgson said:


roughbarked said:

I think you need to hark back to where this all started. It came about when I showed a video link or two to the number of sounds created from a larger number of impacts that could not be separated from the one sound. In relation to watch escapements. ie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmk2mA6dg3o

Didn’t see that :)

But anyway, enough harping on about the flats and the uprights. There’s a lot of interesting stuff about pianos in this thread.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:35:27
From: roughbarked
ID: 1061218
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

Bubblecar said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

i.e. is there something about the horizontal strings that makes them sound better, or was it just prejudice in favour of grands, or are there really no uprights designed and built to the same high standards as the best grands?

As that video explained, the action makes quite a lot of difference, such that fine pianists rarely play uprights.

As to string length, the relationship of the chosen strings and their tension to the length of string, the location the string is struck by which kind of action, the quality of the soundboard and casing etc will all make a difference to the quality of sound.

Just having longer strings won’t necessarily mean a better sound, although it usually does in good full-size grands.


The latter is also about resonance. which brings me back to taller ceilings to acommodate taller pianos.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:36:26
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1061221
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

roughbarked said:


PermeateFree said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Undoubtedly.

But does 6 year old red wine in a bottle with a cork necessarily taste better than 7 year old red wine in a screw top?

More likely dependent on the vintage and cork quality.

Not upon whether the bottle is laying down or standing up?

Yes, that is another drawback of wine bottles sealed with a cork.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:40:05
From: Ian
ID: 1061225
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

>is there something about the horizontal strings that makes them sound better, or was it just prejudice in favour of grands, or are there really no uprights designed and built to the same high standards as the best grands?

No, because of -

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:42:23
From: roughbarked
ID: 1061232
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

The Rev Dodgson said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

roughbarked said:

I think you need to hark back to where this all started. It came about when I showed a video link or two to the number of sounds created from a larger number of impacts that could not be separated from the one sound. In relation to watch escapements. ie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmk2mA6dg3o

Didn’t see that :)

But anyway, enough harping on about the flats and the uprights. There’s a lot of interesting stuff about pianos in this thread.

sure is.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:46:41
From: roughbarked
ID: 1061234
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

PermeateFree said:


roughbarked said:

PermeateFree said:

More likely dependent on the vintage and cork quality.

Not upon whether the bottle is laying down or standing up?

Yes, that is another drawback of wine bottles sealed with a cork.


Would have thought it was the main one ever since they started running out of thick enough corkbark?

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:47:43
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1061235
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

macx said:


The sound board and its geometery are critical in the production and projection of sound in a piano, The sound indeed radiated from the sound board and not simply as a string in tension in free air. This now allows for a complex mix of harmonics which determine the timbre and “quality” of the instrument. The string length while important is almost a minor player. Most sound boards are of pine construction and this has often proven difficult in Australia due to the extremes of temperature and humidity alterning the parameters of the board, many times leading to cracking of the board and the loss of tonal quality of the instrument.

macx

Don’t know if you’ve seen my psaltery/dulcimer, macx. Sound board is King William pine, with a fairly deep sound box. Pleasingly resonant, with the lower strings quite a lot louder than you generally find on this sort of instrument.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:48:27
From: roughbarked
ID: 1061236
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

Ian said:


>is there something about the horizontal strings that makes them sound better, or was it just prejudice in favour of grands, or are there really no uprights designed and built to the same high standards as the best grands?

No, because of -

  • the length of the bass strings
  • visibility for the pianist (and aesthetics)
  • the overwhelming superiority of the action (with the tricky repetition lever)

Try hitting the bassest keys on any upright.

They sound like nothing musical without the touch of a grand pianist.

Reply Quote

Date: 5/05/2017 07:49:42
From: macx
ID: 1061237
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

“…No, because of – …”

A little harsh but in the main I guess is true. Steinway and Bechstein both made high end upright instruments which sounded outstanding and with an excellent build quality, but still inferior IMHO to a grand piano. I have owned both a Steinway and a Bosendorfer grand and there is no comparison to an upright instrument, One of the best upright instruments I have played was an older Yamaha piano…quite excellent in both action and tone.

macx

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Date: 5/05/2017 07:52:12
From: roughbarked
ID: 1061239
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

macx said:


“…No, because of – …”

A little harsh but in the main I guess is true. Steinway and Bechstein both made high end upright instruments which sounded outstanding and with an excellent build quality, but still inferior IMHO to a grand piano. I have owned both a Steinway and a Bosendorfer grand and there is no comparison to an upright instrument, One of the best upright instruments I have played was an older Yamaha piano…quite excellent in both action and tone.

macx

The Japs had their own industry before the west did.

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Date: 5/05/2017 07:55:53
From: macx
ID: 1061241
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

That is exquisitely beautiful Mr Car… quite outstanding. It’s not an instrument I have played but it looks like fun.

I looks like a member of the Zither family…on steroids!

macx

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Date: 5/05/2017 07:57:18
From: roughbarked
ID: 1061242
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

macx said:


That is exquisitely beautiful Mr Car… quite outstanding. It’s not an instrument I have played but it looks like fun.

I looks like a member of the Zither family…on steroids!

macx

That’s similar to what we all said. :)

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Date: 5/05/2017 07:59:49
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1061244
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

macx said:


That is exquisitely beautiful Mr Car… quite outstanding. It’s not an instrument I have played but it looks like fun.

I looks like a member of the Zither family…on steroids!

macx

Yes it’s a big ‘un :)

It is lots of fun. I have some nicely made dulcimer hammers to play it with, as well as many kinds of plectra (including those eagle feathers donated by Buffy), and ordinary finger-plucking.

And a matched pair of Røde microphones to record it with.

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Date: 5/05/2017 07:59:53
From: roughbarked
ID: 1061245
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

roughbarked said:


Ian said:

>is there something about the horizontal strings that makes them sound better, or was it just prejudice in favour of grands, or are there really no uprights designed and built to the same high standards as the best grands?

No, because of -

  • the length of the bass strings
  • visibility for the pianist (and aesthetics)
  • the overwhelming superiority of the action (with the tricky repetition lever)

Try hitting the bassest keys on any upright.

They sound like nothing musical without the touch of a grand pianist.

My old man said of me from the kitchen without seeing which of his kids was playing. “That one has the touch. The others don’t”.

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Date: 5/05/2017 08:03:11
From: macx
ID: 1061246
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

..“The Japs had their own industry before the west did….”

They certainly had a very well developed musical instrument manufacturing base and indeed produced some of the world’s best concert violins at the time, They still produce some very very good classical guitars again to concert quality eg Yari

macx

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Date: 5/05/2017 08:06:17
From: macx
ID: 1061247
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

…“And a matched pair of Røde microphones to record it with…:

Now you’re on my home ground there Mr Car, The Rode mics are very good value for the money.

macx

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Date: 5/05/2017 08:09:07
From: Ian
ID: 1061248
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

macx said:


“…No, because of – …”

A little harsh but in the main I guess is true. Steinway and Bechstein both made high end upright instruments which sounded outstanding and with an excellent build quality, but still inferior IMHO to a grand piano. I have owned both a Steinway and a Bosendorfer grand and there is no comparison to an upright instrument, One of the best upright instruments I have played was an older Yamaha piano…quite excellent in both action and tone.

macx

I didn’t intend to sound harsh (add IMHOs ad lib).

>One of the best upright instruments I have played was an older Yamaha piano…quite excellent in both action and tone.

Likewise.. a lovely instrument.

I have owned a Yamaha Electric Grand and large and small uprights, and used to work as a piano technician. Nothing wrong with upright pianos, especially for the home. As I indicated above, large studio uprights are equal to or better than short grands in regard to sound IMHO.

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Date: 5/05/2017 08:15:03
From: macx
ID: 1061250
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

“… large studio uprights are equal to or better than short grands in regard to sound IMHO.”

I tend to agree with you on that. While “cute”, boudoir grands really are a bit of a w**k

macx

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Date: 5/05/2017 08:38:23
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1061277
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

As I have an upright piano, grand piano and desktop computer in the same room, I could comment on this.

I also have a book called “the modern harpsichord” (somewhere) which goes into great details about how construction affects the quality of sound.

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Date: 5/05/2017 12:21:15
From: Ian
ID: 1061558
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

Another factor to consider if you wanted a very tall upright is that point the hammer strikes the string is 7/8 of the way up the string in order to kill some nasty harmonics. There would have to be some very long stickers (extentions on the keys), and the action located up around ceiling height. You’d need a ladder to reach the tuning pins as well.

Maybe you could have the action just above the floor…… nah.

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Date: 23/05/2017 12:47:26
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1069475
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

Upright grand by Clementi & Co, 1814.

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Date: 23/05/2017 12:49:17
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1069478
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

Same opened up.

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Date: 23/05/2017 12:51:40
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1069480
Subject: re: Grand vs Upright Pianos

Rear view showing bracing.

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