So if two groups of people from various parts of the world did an IQ test, neither of whom had done an IQ test before or been coached in doing one the results should be roughly the same if the sample size was big enough, yeah.
Peak Warming Man said:
So if two groups of people from various parts of the world did an IQ test, neither of whom had done an IQ test before or been coached in doing one the results should be roughly the same if the sample size was big enough, yeah.
Everything else being equal (general educational attainment, culturally neutral test design etc) you’d expect so. But controlling such factors might be very difficult.
Look at the difference between countries where most parents regard education as extremely important and encourage their kids to do very well in schools of high quality, and countries where education is rudimentary and not regarded as being of much practical benefit for large sections of the population.
Hardly surprising to then find differences in IQ scores.
Peak Warming Man said:
So if two groups of people from various parts of the world did an IQ test, neither of whom had done an IQ test before or been coached in doing one the results should be roughly the same if the sample size was big enough, yeah.
No. Nup. Nyet, Non.
Let me start by saying that there are a whole heap of different types of IQ test. Most such tests rely on language so every part of the world, every linguistic culture, every dialect, will perform differently on an IQ test. I wouldn’t perform all that well on an IQ test written in Chinese for example.
There are some IQ tests that are independent of language, these are usually used for testing children too young for language skills. But even these assume familiarity with the objects used. For a person who has never used a beach ball for instance, an IQ test using a beach ball is going to be harder than for a person with a lot of familiarity with a beach ball.
On top of that there are Maslow’s heirarchy of needs differences. A person whose concern is surviving until tomorrow isn’t going to care enough to even try.
Then there are differences due to body chemistry, such as the effect of alcohol.
And that’s before even starting on genetic factors.
I’ve stressed all this because of what I’ve learned about Malaysia. The native Malay population consistently does much worse in IQ tests than the native Chinese population. Because of government policy, this allows Malays to get into University with lower IQ and lower high school scores than Chinese. The Chinese in Malaysia consider this to be racism.
Is it?
mollwollfumble said:
Peak Warming Man said:
So if two groups of people from various parts of the world did an IQ test, neither of whom had done an IQ test before or been coached in doing one the results should be roughly the same if the sample size was big enough, yeah.
If you two groups are identical or close to identical sub groups then yeah. It seems to me that you are working on the assumption that the population’s average of outcomes of iq’s will be represented in you results because you sub groups are examples of the world population but on a smaller but still large enough test group to agree with the current stats for normal range , below average , above average etc..yeah?
edits:
If your two groups are identical or close to identical sub groups then yeah.
It seems to me that you are working on the assumption that the population’s average of outcomes of iq’s will be represented in your results because your sub groups are examples of the world’s collective populations but on a smaller scale but still a large enough test group to agree with the current stats for normal range , below average , above average etc..yeah?I don’t think so. Nutrition and environment have big effects on IQ.
dv said:
if you select the same groups of people from the same regions
I don’t think so. Nutrition and environment have big effects on IQ.
Bubblecar said:
Peak Warming Man said:
So if two groups of people from various parts of the world did an IQ test, neither of whom had done an IQ test before or been coached in doing one the results should be roughly the same if the sample size was big enough, yeah.
Everything else being equal (general educational attainment, culturally neutral test design etc) you’d expect so. But controlling such factors might be very difficult.
Even with Mr Car’s provisos I wouldn’t expect the results to necessarily be the same because:
1. The style of education might have an effect.
2. Making the tests culturally neutral for all cultures is virtually impossible.
3. Picking a group who were genuinely equivalent in terms of economic status is virtually impossible.
4. Cultural factors other than education are likely to have an effect
5. All the other cultural/educational differences that I didn’t think of are likely to have an effect.
6. And finally, the one that people don’t like to talk about, if IQ has a hereditary component, then that component is likely to vary between different regions of the World.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
Peak Warming Man said:
So if two groups of people from various parts of the world did an IQ test, neither of whom had done an IQ test before or been coached in doing one the results should be roughly the same if the sample size was big enough, yeah.
Everything else being equal (general educational attainment, culturally neutral test design etc) you’d expect so. But controlling such factors might be very difficult.
Even with Mr Car’s provisos I wouldn’t expect the results to necessarily be the same because:
1. The style of education might have an effect.
2. Making the tests culturally neutral for all cultures is virtually impossible.
3. Picking a group who were genuinely equivalent in terms of economic status is virtually impossible.
4. Cultural factors other than education are likely to have an effect
5. All the other cultural/educational differences that I didn’t think of are likely to have an effect.6. And finally, the one that people don’t like to talk about, if IQ has a hereditary component, then that component is likely to vary between different regions of the World.
Have a book around here somewhere called Creativity. In it it describes how a school was being tested for IQ and one child scored very poorly. Upon being questioned it was found that his father had been diagnosed with TB and had lost his job. Sometime later the child was tested again and his level was way up on the high side. It turned out that his father no longer had TB and had a job again.
People have attempted to deal with these issues by designing tests that don’t rely on language, maths, education, previous experience with being tested (and so on) by using pictures to test a person’s ability to recognise patterns, deduce, predict, rotate an object in space…
I gave a link to an example of one of these tests in the Chat thread earlier: IQ Test
Rule 303 said:
People have attempted to deal with these issues by designing tests that don’t rely on language, maths, education, previous experience with being tested (and so on) by using pictures to test a person’s ability to recognise patterns, deduce, predict, rotate an object in space…I gave a link to an example of one of these tests in the Chat thread earlier: IQ Test
Yeah, but they don’t work.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Rule 303 said:
People have attempted to deal with these issues by designing tests that don’t rely on language, maths, education, previous experience with being tested (and so on) by using pictures to test a person’s ability to recognise patterns, deduce, predict, rotate an object in space…I gave a link to an example of one of these tests in the Chat thread earlier: IQ Test
Yeah, but they don’t work.
You’ll have to take that up with the people who create them. There seems to be some kind of specialised knowledge involved that I don’t have.
;-)
Rule 303 said:
There seems to be some kind of specialised knowledge involved that I don’t have.
8-O
Rule 303 said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Rule 303 said:
People have attempted to deal with these issues by designing tests that don’t rely on language, maths, education, previous experience with being tested (and so on) by using pictures to test a person’s ability to recognise patterns, deduce, predict, rotate an object in space…I gave a link to an example of one of these tests in the Chat thread earlier: IQ Test
Yeah, but they don’t work.
You’ll have to take that up with the people who create them. There seems to be some kind of specialised knowledge involved that I don’t have.
;-)
Is that where belief comes in?
I’ve never done an IQ test and don’t intend to ever bother.
And when I’m in the nursing home and they start asking me questions, I think I’ll give them odd answers. “Who is your local member of parliament?” “Don’t know and don’t care” “What day of the week is it” “You mean there are still days of the week? They are all the same here” Etc.
buffy said:
Rule 303 said:
The Rev Dodgson said:Yeah, but they don’t work.
You’ll have to take that up with the people who create them. There seems to be some kind of specialised knowledge involved that I don’t have.
;-)
Is that where belief comes in?
I’ve never done an IQ test and don’t intend to ever bother.
And when I’m in the nursing home and they start asking me questions, I think I’ll give them odd answers. “Who is your local member of parliament?” “Don’t know and don’t care” “What day of the week is it” “You mean there are still days of the week? They are all the same here” Etc.
Some years ago a friend had a stroke. In the hospital they started asking her these sorts of questions. They asked her who the Prime Minister was and she answered “Kevin Fucking Rudd” through clenched teeth.
buffy said:
“Who is your local member of parliament?” “Don’t know and don’t care”
I’d have to go with that one.
Even though he sent me a nice letter yesterday, I couldn’t name him.
The Rev Dodgson said:
buffy said:“Who is your local member of parliament?” “Don’t know and don’t care”I’d have to go with that one.
Even though he sent me a nice letter yesterday, I couldn’t name him.
This one’s easy for me: Greg Hunt (not rhyming slang).
The Rev Dodgson said:
buffy said:“Who is your local member of parliament?” “Don’t know and don’t care”I’d have to go with that one.
Even though he sent me a nice letter yesterday, I couldn’t name him.
We’ve got Dan Tehan. I know this because one of my patients works for him, and I have written letters to him. The last one surprised me, because a couple of months later I got a phone call from the Health Minister’s office to discuss my problem. I was verging on being impressed. But I controlled myself. I’ll let myself be a little impressed if the promised second call eventuates.
The Rev Dodgson said:
buffy said:“Who is your local member of parliament?” “Don’t know and don’t care”I’d have to go with that one.
Even though he sent me a nice letter yesterday, I couldn’t name him.
I remember when a member of parliament being ‘named’ was a rooly bad thing.
Don’t herar much about that any more, forget the context.
The Rev Dodgson said:
buffy said:“Who is your local member of parliament?” “Don’t know and don’t care”I’d have to go with that one.
Even though he sent me a nice letter yesterday, I couldn’t name him.
I don’t know, I have moved districts since the last election.
Peak Warming Man said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
buffy said:“Who is your local member of parliament?” “Don’t know and don’t care”I’d have to go with that one.
Even though he sent me a nice letter yesterday, I couldn’t name him.
I remember when a member of parliament being ‘named’ was a rooly bad thing.
Don’t herar much about that any more, forget the context.
Bronny probably wore it out.
buffy said:
Rule 303 said:
The Rev Dodgson said:Yeah, but they don’t work.
You’ll have to take that up with the people who create them. There seems to be some kind of specialised knowledge involved that I don’t have.
;-)
Is that where belief comes in?
I’ve never done an IQ test and don’t intend to ever bother.
And when I’m in the nursing home and they start asking me questions, I think I’ll give them odd answers. “Who is your local member of parliament?” “Don’t know and don’t care” “What day of the week is it” “You mean there are still days of the week? They are all the same here” Etc.
runs away
buffy said:
Is that where belief comes in?I’ve never done an IQ test and don’t intend to ever bother.
And when I’m in the nursing home and they start asking me questions, I think I’ll give them odd answers. “Who is your local member of parliament?” “Don’t know and don’t care” “What day of the week is it” “You mean there are still days of the week? They are all the same here” Etc.
Surely you’ve done IQ tests in your school years. In my high school all students did an IQ test as part of the streaming into different classes.
Bubblecar said:
Surely you’ve done IQ tests in your school years. In my high school all students did an IQ test as part of the streaming into different classes.
…that was at age 12-13. I know I did extremely well because my late bro-in-law (who was one of the markers) told me so.
I’m sure there were also IQ tests in primary school.
Rule linked to an IQ map derived from “IQ and Global Inequality” by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen. The methodology used has been widely criticised.
For mine: no doubt it is a complex matter but the figures do seem out of whack. For instance, Lynn’s published mean IQ for Botswana is 70. This would mean that the great bulk of Botswanans cannot get close to reaching high school and most could not attain functional literacy but that’s not the case.
I’m annoyed. No where at the front did they say I had to log into facebook to get my result. What a gip…
Bubblecar said:
Bubblecar said:
Surely you’ve done IQ tests in your school years. In my high school all students did an IQ test as part of the streaming into different classes.
…that was at age 12-13. I know I did extremely well because my late bro-in-law (who was one of the markers) told me so.
I did an IQ test at each school.
They all showed concern that a person of my capability wasn’t a shining light.
Witty Rejoinder said:
buffy said:
Rule 303 said:You’ll have to take that up with the people who create them. There seems to be some kind of specialised knowledge involved that I don’t have.
;-)
Is that where belief comes in?
I’ve never done an IQ test and don’t intend to ever bother.
And when I’m in the nursing home and they start asking me questions, I think I’ll give them odd answers. “Who is your local member of parliament?” “Don’t know and don’t care” “What day of the week is it” “You mean there are still days of the week? They are all the same here” Etc.
Your father’s daughter i see…runs away
Actually, no, my father tries terribly hard on those tests.
I’m sure buffy did IQ tests too. But she might not remember because the kids weren’t usually told they were “IQ tests”, just tests.
Bubblecar said:
buffy said:
Is that where belief comes in?I’ve never done an IQ test and don’t intend to ever bother.
And when I’m in the nursing home and they start asking me questions, I think I’ll give them odd answers. “Who is your local member of parliament?” “Don’t know and don’t care” “What day of the week is it” “You mean there are still days of the week? They are all the same here” Etc.
Surely you’ve done IQ tests in your school years. In my high school all students did an IQ test as part of the streaming into different classes.
No. There was no streaming at my primary or high school. There was a bit of informal student selection in the early years of primary school. Some of us were moved from Prep into Grade 1 after some months, which I think was more a matter of overcrowding at the time. We then did a full Grade 1 the next year. I’ve always thought the teachers were pretty good with their selection, one of us (not me) was State dux at HSC, another is now a very senior legal person/international authority on internet law etc. And I was the other one…
did an IQ test years ago. I failed.
Bubblecar said:
I’m sure buffy did IQ tests too. But she might not remember because the kids weren’t usually told they were “IQ tests”, just tests.
In early days. The emphasis was not on revealing anything to the tested. In later days they started to say that stuff.
Buffy’s matginally behind me in yerars.
did an IQ test years ago. got 100. never got 100 in a test before.
dv said:
Rule linked to an IQ map derived from “IQ and Global Inequality” by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen. The methodology used has been widely criticised.For mine: no doubt it is a complex matter but the figures do seem out of whack. For instance, Lynn’s published mean IQ for Botswana is 70. This would mean that the great bulk of Botswanans cannot get close to reaching high school and most could not attain functional literacy but that’s not the case.
Heh, I don’t know… I have met plenty of people who seemed to have serious cognitive impairment but could still read and write enough to be called ‘literate’.
You might have deduced from my inital post:
Just reading an article about a woman who was judged ‘Unfit to stand’ in a murder trial because of very low IQ (75) and I can’t help but wonder what they do in countries where the average IQ is below that? If the research is good, there’s about 40 countries.
that I share the concerns about the methodology of the research. Doesn’t make the question any less interesting, IMO.
Bubblecar said:
I’m sure buffy did IQ tests too. But she might not remember because the kids weren’t usually told they were “IQ tests”, just tests.
No, I assure you we did not do IQ tests. I just asked Mr buffy and he never did them either. Both of us went through government schools.
I used to be really into puzzles and crosswords, and I’ve looked at IQ tests, but never done them. They look juvenile to me.
Rule 303 said:
dv said:
Rule linked to an IQ map derived from “IQ and Global Inequality” by Richard Lynn and Tatu Vanhanen. The methodology used has been widely criticised.For mine: no doubt it is a complex matter but the figures do seem out of whack. For instance, Lynn’s published mean IQ for Botswana is 70. This would mean that the great bulk of Botswanans cannot get close to reaching high school and most could not attain functional literacy but that’s not the case.
Heh, I don’t know… I have met plenty of people who seemed to have serious cognitive impairment but could still read and write enough to be called ‘literate’.
You might have deduced from my inital post:
Just reading an article about a woman who was judged ‘Unfit to stand’ in a murder trial because of very low IQ (75) and I can’t help but wonder what they do in countries where the average IQ is below that? If the research is good, there’s about 40 countries.
that I share the concerns about the methodology of the research. Doesn’t make the question any less interesting, IMO.
It ios an interesting question.
buffy said:
Bubblecar said:
I’m sure buffy did IQ tests too. But she might not remember because the kids weren’t usually told they were “IQ tests”, just tests.
No, I assure you we did not do IQ tests. I just asked Mr buffy and he never did them either. Both of us went through government schools.
I used to be really into puzzles and crosswords, and I’ve looked at IQ tests, but never done them. They look juvenile to me.
I did IQ tests at both Catholic and Government schools.
buffy said:
Bubblecar said:
I’m sure buffy did IQ tests too. But she might not remember because the kids weren’t usually told they were “IQ tests”, just tests.
No, I assure you we did not do IQ tests. I just asked Mr buffy and he never did them either. Both of us went through government schools.
I used to be really into puzzles and crosswords, and I’ve looked at IQ tests, but never done them. They look juvenile to me.
Maybe Victoria was idiosyncratic in that regard. I think most Australian schools in the 60s and 70s had class streaming that made use of IQ tests.
roughbarked said:
buffy said:
Bubblecar said:
I’m sure buffy did IQ tests too. But she might not remember because the kids weren’t usually told they were “IQ tests”, just tests.
No, I assure you we did not do IQ tests. I just asked Mr buffy and he never did them either. Both of us went through government schools.
I used to be really into puzzles and crosswords, and I’ve looked at IQ tests, but never done them. They look juvenile to me.
I did IQ tests at both Catholic and Government schools.
I was also given an IQ test by an employment advisor after I finished my apprenticeship as a watchmaker I did go see what further studies I would possibly need to do in order to actually have a job because watchmakers were no longer in vogue by 1975.
Bubblecar said:
buffy said:
Bubblecar said:
I’m sure buffy did IQ tests too. But she might not remember because the kids weren’t usually told they were “IQ tests”, just tests.
No, I assure you we did not do IQ tests. I just asked Mr buffy and he never did them either. Both of us went through government schools.
I used to be really into puzzles and crosswords, and I’ve looked at IQ tests, but never done them. They look juvenile to me.
Maybe Victoria was idiosyncratic in that regard. I think most Australian schools in the 60s and 70s had class streaming that made use of IQ tests.
Maybe. I have no experience of Victoria and cannot comment.
i have done an aptitude test.
And then what happened?
Bubblecar said:
buffy said:
Bubblecar said:
I’m sure buffy did IQ tests too. But she might not remember because the kids weren’t usually told they were “IQ tests”, just tests.
No, I assure you we did not do IQ tests. I just asked Mr buffy and he never did them either. Both of us went through government schools.
I used to be really into puzzles and crosswords, and I’ve looked at IQ tests, but never done them. They look juvenile to me.
Maybe Victoria was idiosyncratic in that regard. I think most Australian schools in the 60s and 70s had class streaming that made use of IQ tests.
I went to Koonung High School, which opened in about 1966, and was considered a bit “new”. Mr buffy went to Box Hill Boys High, which was an elite school – they had to take Mr buffy because he lived in the school zone. They streamed in senior years as far as he can recall. He also attended Kew High School for Leaving and HSC so streaming wasn’t applicable.
ChrispenEvan said:
i have done an aptitude test.
I’d think a lot of us have undergone these, possibly most often whilst unaware of the fact.
furious said:
- i have done an aptitude test.
And then what happened?
i got the job printing in an envelope factory. was about 16.
buffy said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Your father’s daughter i see…
runs away
Actually, no, my father tries terribly hard on those tests.
See you’re being obstinate again… :-)
ChrispenEvan said:
furious said:
- i have done an aptitude test.
And then what happened?
i got the job printing in an envelope factory. was about 16.
Anyway I was always in the top classes, and my reports usually said something like “Bubblecar is highly intelligent, capable and creative, but prone to laziness and apathy etc etc”.
Witty Rejoinder said:
buffy said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Your father’s daughter i see…
runs away
Actually, no, my father tries terribly hard on those tests.
See you’re being obstinate again… :-)
Buffy’s a stickler for doing everything her way, so it’s not surprising to find her parents are much the same :)
Witty Rejoinder said:
buffy said:
Witty Rejoinder said:Your father’s daughter i see…
runs away
Actually, no, my father tries terribly hard on those tests.
See you’re being obstinate again… :-)
I believe the real point of an IQ test is to see whether you actually need to try. The first IQ test I did. It was apparently supposed to take us the full length of time allotted to do the test. I was fidgeting in my seat five minutes after we went into the room and started. The supervisor singled me pout and asked why I was fidgeting. My reply was, “I’ve finished the test. Do I have to stay here until everyone finishes?” She said, “no of course not if you have finished”. and came up to check. She looked and said, “yes, you can go back to your classroom.”
The next day my parent’s were quizzing me about the fact that if there was daylight between me and the rest of the school, why wasn’t I dux of the class?
My answer has always been, we all have to learn how to get along together.
Bubblecar said:
Anyway I was always in the top classes, and my reports usually said something like “Bubblecar is highly intelligent, capable and creative, but prone to laziness and apathy etc etc”.
THey said the same about me and the rough boys called me a girl too.
Bubblecar said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
buffy said:Actually, no, my father tries terribly hard on those tests.
See you’re being obstinate again… :-)
Buffy’s a stickler for doing everything her way, so it’s not surprising to find her parents are much the same :)
Seems that the point is fairly and squarely laid.
roughbarked said:
Witty Rejoinder said:The first IQ test I did. It was apparently supposed to take us the full length of time allotted to do the test. I was fidgeting in my seat five minutes after we went into the room and started. The supervisor singled me pout and asked why I was fidgeting. My reply was, “I’ve finished the test.
buffy said:Actually, no, my father tries terribly hard on those tests.
See you’re being obstinate again… :-)
that first part isn’t part of the test it is just where you put your name.
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
Witty Rejoinder said:The first IQ test I did. It was apparently supposed to take us the full length of time allotted to do the test. I was fidgeting in my seat five minutes after we went into the room and started. The supervisor singled me pout and asked why I was fidgeting. My reply was, “I’ve finished the test.See you’re being obstinate again… :-)
that first part isn’t part of the test it is just where you put your name.
No. ;) Honestly it was a walk in the park for me.
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:The first IQ test I did. It was apparently supposed to take us the full length of time allotted to do the test. I was fidgeting in my seat five minutes after we went into the room and started. The supervisor singled me pout and asked why I was fidgeting. My reply was, “I’ve finished the test.that first part isn’t part of the test it is just where you put your name.
No. ;) Honestly it was a walk in the park for me.
What I found about my first IQ test was that it wasn’t about schoolwork. The easiest thing for me to get into. Breezed through the whole thing and was itching to get out of there within minutes.
I’m pretty sure everyone here is an above average kick arse IQ tester… as good as we are at driving
Arts said:
I’m pretty sure everyone here is an above average kick arse IQ tester… as good as we are at driving
I’m not sure the cops agree because I’m sure that a lot of us are also good at driving fast.
Bubblecar said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
buffy said:Actually, no, my father tries terribly hard on those tests.
See you’re being obstinate again… :-)
Buffy’s a stickler for doing everything her way, so it’s not surprising to find her parents are much the same :)
My point exactly.
The first IQ test I did relatively poorly.
The second IQ test I ranked very high.
The reason is simple. IQ is easy to learn, and teach, and practice.
All it takes is the desire.
mollwollfumble said:
The first IQ test I did relatively poorly.
The second IQ test I ranked very high.The reason is simple. IQ is easy to learn, and teach, and practice.
All it takes is the desire.
As I said. My IQ test first was the realisation that I wasn’t being asked about my schooling. So they really only want to know what you think about this?
roughbarked said:
mollwollfumble said:
The first IQ test I did relatively poorly.
The second IQ test I ranked very high.The reason is simple. IQ is easy to learn, and teach, and practice.
All it takes is the desire.
As I said. My IQ test first was the realisation that I wasn’t being asked about my schooling. So they really only want to know what you think about this?
The realisation that you have no rules to follow lets your intelligence quota free. This is all they are testing.
roughbarked said:
roughbarked said:
mollwollfumble said:
The first IQ test I did relatively poorly.
The second IQ test I ranked very high.The reason is simple. IQ is easy to learn, and teach, and practice.
All it takes is the desire.
As I said. My IQ test first was the realisation that I wasn’t being asked about my schooling. So they really only want to know what you think about this?
The realisation that you have no rules to follow lets your intelligence quota free. This is all they are testing.
That they could suggest that there was daylight between me and the rest of the school was no surprise. They at the time were mostly immigrant farmers sons with grape juice staining their hands. I taught Frank Sartor how to translate into English. I was a bit pissed off when he went into NSW politics.
You know Roughy for someone so accomplished you seem to have a very insecure need to tell everyone how good you are.
Witty Rejoinder said:
You know Roughy for someone so accomplished you seem to have a very insecure need to tell everyone how good you are.
You may see it in this light.
But the subject is about IQ, only.
I’m quite clearly an abject failure at most of what most of what you are all good at.
I have the aptitude yes but only for what I have the aptitude to bother with.
I’m currently having a good time realising that despite all those who countered my questioning nature because it suited them to keep their jobs.. that there was actually nothing wrong with my cognitive capabilities at all.
Rule 303 said:
Heh, I don’t know… I have met plenty of people who seemed to have serious cognitive impairment but could still read and write enough to be called ‘literate’.
Well right but 70 is extremely low.
Put it yet another way. From the same study, average IQ in Somalia is 68. An IQ of 75 denotes a 50% chance of being able to commence high school. This is not the experience among Somali refugees in Australia.
dv said:
Rule 303 said:Heh, I don’t know… I have met plenty of people who seemed to have serious cognitive impairment but could still read and write enough to be called ‘literate’.
Well right but 70 is extremely low.
Put it yet another way. From the same study, average IQ in Somalia is 68. An IQ of 75 denotes a 50% chance of being able to commence high school. This is not the experience among Somali refugees in Australia.
That is interesting news because I have no trouble talking to people from Somalia.
I really should probably suggest that IQ is about being able to relate to anything. even if others are unable.
Isaac Asimov tells a story.
Apparently Mr Asimov had an enormous IQ, high genius. And yet the story he tells is of how he was outsmarted by his garage mechanic, someone with a less than average IQ. I read the story in a book, it may be on the web by now.
mollwollfumble said:
Isaac Asimov tells a story.Apparently Mr Asimov had an enormous IQ, high genius. And yet the story he tells is of how he was outsmarted by his garage mechanic, someone with a less than average IQ. I read the story in a book, it may be on the web by now.
It doesn’t matter. IQ isn’t about Maths or science.. Yes these things help but no. it is not about them.
dv said:
Rule 303 said:Heh, I don’t know… I have met plenty of people who seemed to have serious cognitive impairment but could still read and write enough to be called ‘literate’.
Well right but 70 is extremely low.
Put it yet another way. From the same study, average IQ in Somalia is 68. An IQ of 75 denotes a 50% chance of being able to commence high school. This is not the experience among Somali refugees in Australia.
Yeah OK. Hmmm… Based entirely upon my very limited experience of working with the kids of recent immigrants, and kids who are in ‘diversionary’ programs (to keep them out of the hands of Juvenile Justice agencies), a couple of days per week for the last two months: There’s a surprising number of kids in schools who have individual or shared ‘classroom helpers’, who seem to be people who hang out at the back of the class during most of the lesson talking amongst themselves, then ‘help’ the kids through the work or assessment by feeding it to the kid word-for-word, or just giving them the answer.
I don’t know how that fits with your impression, but it’s what I’m seeing.
roughbarked said:
mollwollfumble said:
Isaac Asimov tells a story.Apparently Mr Asimov had an enormous IQ, high genius. And yet the story he tells is of how he was outsmarted by his garage mechanic, someone with a less than average IQ. I read the story in a book, it may be on the web by now.
It doesn’t matter. IQ isn’t about Maths or science.. Yes these things help but no. it is not about them.
Your IQ is how you see what is around you.
This is certainly improved by whatever education in any way that you have experienced.
This is probably pretty much all that is registered. How you actually interpret signs that are given you.
Rule 303 said:
dv said:
Rule 303 said:Heh, I don’t know… I have met plenty of people who seemed to have serious cognitive impairment but could still read and write enough to be called ‘literate’.
Well right but 70 is extremely low.
Put it yet another way. From the same study, average IQ in Somalia is 68. An IQ of 75 denotes a 50% chance of being able to commence high school. This is not the experience among Somali refugees in Australia.
Yeah OK. Hmmm… Based entirely upon my very limited experience of working with the kids of recent immigrants, and kids who are in ‘diversionary’ programs (to keep them out of the hands of Juvenile Justice agencies), a couple of days per week for the last two months: There’s a surprising number of kids in schools who have individual or shared ‘classroom helpers’, who seem to be people who hang out at the back of the class during most of the lesson talking amongst themselves, then ‘help’ the kids through the work or assessment by feeding it to the kid word-for-word, or just giving them the answer.
I don’t know how that fits with your impression, but it’s what I’m seeing.
It is not at all an uncommon happenstance.
mollwollfumble said:
Isaac Asimov tells a story.Apparently Mr Asimov had an enormous IQ, high genius. And yet the story he tells is of how he was outsmarted by his garage mechanic, someone with a less than average IQ. I read the story in a book, it may be on the web by now.
What is intelligence, anyway?
When I was in the army, I received the kind of aptitude test that all soldiers took and, against a normal of 100, scored 160. No one at the base had ever seen a figure like that, and for two hours they made a big fuss over me.
(It didn’t mean anything. The next day I was still a buck private with KP – kitchen police – as my highest duty.)
All my life I’ve been registering scores like that, so that I have the complacent feeling that I’m highly intelligent, and I expect other people to think so too.
Actually, though, don’t such scores simply mean that I am very good at answering the type of academic questions that are considered worthy of answers by people who make up the intelligence tests – people with intellectual bents similar to mine?
For instance, I had an auto-repair man once, who, on these intelligence tests, could not possibly have scored more than 80, by my estimate. I always took it for granted that I was far more intelligent than he was.
Yet, when anything went wrong with my car I hastened to him with it, watched him anxiously as he explored its vitals, and listened to his pronouncements as though they were divine oracles – and he always fixed my car.
Well, then, suppose my auto-repair man devised questions for an intelligence test.
Or suppose a carpenter did, or a farmer, or, indeed, almost anyone but an academician. By every one of those tests, I’d prove myself a moron, and I’d be a moron, too.
In a world where I could not use my academic training and my verbal talents but had to do something intricate or hard, working with my hands, I would do poorly.
My intelligence, then, is not absolute but is a function of the society I live in and of the fact that a small subsection of that society has managed to foist itself on the rest as an arbiter of such matters.
Consider my auto-repair man, again.
He had a habit of telling me jokes whenever he saw me.
One time he raised his head from under the automobile hood to say: “Doc, a deaf-and-mute guy went into a hardware store to ask for some nails. He put two fingers together on the counter and made hammering motions with the other hand.
“The clerk brought him a hammer. He shook his head and pointed to the two fingers he was hammering. The clerk brought him nails. He picked out the sizes he wanted, and left. Well, doc, the next guy who came in was a blind man. He wanted scissors. How do you suppose he asked for them?”
Indulgently, I lifted by right hand and made scissoring motions with my first two fingers.
Whereupon my auto-repair man laughed raucously and said, “Why, you dumb jerk, He used his voice and asked for them.”
Then he said smugly, “I’ve been trying that on all my customers today.” “Did you catch many?” I asked. “Quite a few,” he said, “but I knew for sure I’d catch you.”
“Why is that?” I asked. “Because you’re so goddamned educated, doc, I knew you couldn’t be very smart.”
And I have an uneasy feeling he had something there.
Rule 303 said:
dv said:Well right but 70 is extremely low.
Put it yet another way. From the same study, average IQ in Somalia is 68. An IQ of 75 denotes a 50% chance of being able to commence high school. This is not the experience among Somali refugees in Australia.
Yeah OK. Hmmm… Based entirely upon my very limited experience of working with the kids of recent immigrants, and kids who are in ‘diversionary’ programs (to keep them out of the hands of Juvenile Justice agencies), a couple of days per week for the last two months: There’s a surprising number of kids in schools who have individual or shared ‘classroom helpers’, who seem to be people who hang out at the back of the class during most of the lesson talking amongst themselves, then ‘help’ the kids through the work or assessment by feeding it to the kid word-for-word, or just giving them the answer.
I don’t know how that fits with your impression, but it’s what I’m seeing.
Yeah I see that at my son’s school. But it’s not the sub-Saharan Africans.
sibeen said:
mollwollfumble said:
Isaac Asimov tells a story.Apparently Mr Asimov had an enormous IQ, high genius. And yet the story he tells is of how he was outsmarted by his garage mechanic, someone with a less than average IQ. I read the story in a book, it may be on the web by now.
What is intelligence, anyway?
When I was in the army, I received the kind of aptitude test that all soldiers took and, against a normal of 100, scored 160. No one at the base had ever seen a figure like that, and for two hours they made a big fuss over me.
(It didn’t mean anything. The next day I was still a buck private with KP – kitchen police – as my highest duty.)
All my life I’ve been registering scores like that, so that I have the complacent feeling that I’m highly intelligent, and I expect other people to think so too.
Actually, though, don’t such scores simply mean that I am very good at answering the type of academic questions that are considered worthy of answers by people who make up the intelligence tests – people with intellectual bents similar to mine?
For instance, I had an auto-repair man once, who, on these intelligence tests, could not possibly have scored more than 80, by my estimate. I always took it for granted that I was far more intelligent than he was.
Yet, when anything went wrong with my car I hastened to him with it, watched him anxiously as he explored its vitals, and listened to his pronouncements as though they were divine oracles – and he always fixed my car.
Well, then, suppose my auto-repair man devised questions for an intelligence test.
Or suppose a carpenter did, or a farmer, or, indeed, almost anyone but an academician. By every one of those tests, I’d prove myself a moron, and I’d be a moron, too.
In a world where I could not use my academic training and my verbal talents but had to do something intricate or hard, working with my hands, I would do poorly.
My intelligence, then, is not absolute but is a function of the society I live in and of the fact that a small subsection of that society has managed to foist itself on the rest as an arbiter of such matters.
Consider my auto-repair man, again.
He had a habit of telling me jokes whenever he saw me.
One time he raised his head from under the automobile hood to say: “Doc, a deaf-and-mute guy went into a hardware store to ask for some nails. He put two fingers together on the counter and made hammering motions with the other hand.
“The clerk brought him a hammer. He shook his head and pointed to the two fingers he was hammering. The clerk brought him nails. He picked out the sizes he wanted, and left. Well, doc, the next guy who came in was a blind man. He wanted scissors. How do you suppose he asked for them?”
Indulgently, I lifted by right hand and made scissoring motions with my first two fingers.
Whereupon my auto-repair man laughed raucously and said, “Why, you dumb jerk, He used his voice and asked for them.”
Then he said smugly, “I’ve been trying that on all my customers today.” “Did you catch many?” I asked. “Quite a few,” he said, “but I knew for sure I’d catch you.”
“Why is that?” I asked. “Because you’re so goddamned educated, doc, I knew you couldn’t be very smart.”
And I have an uneasy feeling he had something there.
I try not to play these games. It is difficult because the opportunities are always there.
dv said:
Rule 303 said:
dv said:Well right but 70 is extremely low.
Put it yet another way. From the same study, average IQ in Somalia is 68. An IQ of 75 denotes a 50% chance of being able to commence high school. This is not the experience among Somali refugees in Australia.
Yeah OK. Hmmm… Based entirely upon my very limited experience of working with the kids of recent immigrants, and kids who are in ‘diversionary’ programs (to keep them out of the hands of Juvenile Justice agencies), a couple of days per week for the last two months: There’s a surprising number of kids in schools who have individual or shared ‘classroom helpers’, who seem to be people who hang out at the back of the class during most of the lesson talking amongst themselves, then ‘help’ the kids through the work or assessment by feeding it to the kid word-for-word, or just giving them the answer.
I don’t know how that fits with your impression, but it’s what I’m seeing.
Yeah I see that at my son’s school. But it’s not the sub-Saharan Africans.
BTW – TVC can process milk, the fluffy cat can’t.
an advertising campain that states, “call the white ant specialists”. is either a complete insult to your intelligence or simply blarb you should probably ignore?
sibeen said:
mollwollfumble said:
Isaac Asimov tells a story.Apparently Mr Asimov had an enormous IQ, high genius. And yet the story he tells is of how he was outsmarted by his garage mechanic, someone with a less than average IQ. I read the story in a book, it may be on the web by now.
What is intelligence, anyway?
When I was in the army, I received the kind of aptitude test that all soldiers took and, against a normal of 100, scored 160. No one at the base had ever seen a figure like that, and for two hours they made a big fuss over me.
(It didn’t mean anything. The next day I was still a buck private with KP – kitchen police – as my highest duty.)
All my life I’ve been registering scores like that, so that I have the complacent feeling that I’m highly intelligent, and I expect other people to think so too.
Actually, though, don’t such scores simply mean that I am very good at answering the type of academic questions that are considered worthy of answers by people who make up the intelligence tests – people with intellectual bents similar to mine?
For instance, I had an auto-repair man once, who, on these intelligence tests, could not possibly have scored more than 80, by my estimate. I always took it for granted that I was far more intelligent than he was.
Yet, when anything went wrong with my car I hastened to him with it, watched him anxiously as he explored its vitals, and listened to his pronouncements as though they were divine oracles – and he always fixed my car.
Well, then, suppose my auto-repair man devised questions for an intelligence test.
Or suppose a carpenter did, or a farmer, or, indeed, almost anyone but an academician. By every one of those tests, I’d prove myself a moron, and I’d be a moron, too.
In a world where I could not use my academic training and my verbal talents but had to do something intricate or hard, working with my hands, I would do poorly.
My intelligence, then, is not absolute but is a function of the society I live in and of the fact that a small subsection of that society has managed to foist itself on the rest as an arbiter of such matters.
Consider my auto-repair man, again.
He had a habit of telling me jokes whenever he saw me.
One time he raised his head from under the automobile hood to say: “Doc, a deaf-and-mute guy went into a hardware store to ask for some nails. He put two fingers together on the counter and made hammering motions with the other hand.
“The clerk brought him a hammer. He shook his head and pointed to the two fingers he was hammering. The clerk brought him nails. He picked out the sizes he wanted, and left. Well, doc, the next guy who came in was a blind man. He wanted scissors. How do you suppose he asked for them?”
Indulgently, I lifted by right hand and made scissoring motions with my first two fingers.
Whereupon my auto-repair man laughed raucously and said, “Why, you dumb jerk, He used his voice and asked for them.”
Then he said smugly, “I’ve been trying that on all my customers today.” “Did you catch many?” I asked. “Quite a few,” he said, “but I knew for sure I’d catch you.”
“Why is that?” I asked. “Because you’re so goddamned educated, doc, I knew you couldn’t be very smart.”
And I have an uneasy feeling he had something there.
Thanks sibeen. Apposite. And if you don’t read the quote at the top from moll, you could almost thing you were channelling a regular poster in the first couple of sentences…
A random Internet quote on IQ tests:
“You don’t have an IQ. Nobody does, because intelligence is a human quality, like empathy or patience, that can’t be quantified and measured as if with a ruler or a dipstick.
The only purposes of IQ tests on the Internet are to sell something, or to humiliate or flatter people. In schools, businesses and government institutions (e.g. the military) IQ tests are used to sort people into castes. If you have no need to get fast-tracked in one of those settings, you are safe to ignore the whole IQ topic.”
roughbarked said:
an advertising campain that states, “call the white ant specialists”. is either a complete insult to your intelligence or simply blarb you should probably ignore?
What’s so insulting about a suggestion that someone might know more about dealing with white ants than the average reader of the advert does?
The Rev Dodgson said:
The only purposes of IQ tests on the Internet are to sell something, or to humiliate or flatter people. In schools, businesses and government institutions (e.g. the military) IQ tests are used to sort people into castes. If you have no need to get fast-tracked in one of those settings, you are safe to ignore the whole IQ topic.”
Unless you’re using it to decide whether a person is ‘fit’ to face legal processes.
Do you have much experience with people of very low IQ, Rev?
Rule 303 said:
Do you have much experience with people of very low IQ, Rev?
he read us, doesn’t he? :)
Some very smart people have zero common sense.
The Rev Dodgson said:
roughbarked said:
an advertising campain that states, “call the white ant specialists”. is either a complete insult to your intelligence or simply blarb you should probably ignore?
What’s so insulting about a suggestion that someone might know more about dealing with white ants than the average reader of the advert does?
cos white ants is a misnomer, though widely used.
Divine Angel said:
Some very smart people have zero common sense.
Yeah, I’m talking about people who are incapable of the basics of complex thinking like deductive reasoning, abstract thought.
Rule 303 said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
The only purposes of IQ tests on the Internet are to sell something, or to humiliate or flatter people. In schools, businesses and government institutions (e.g. the military) IQ tests are used to sort people into castes. If you have no need to get fast-tracked in one of those settings, you are safe to ignore the whole IQ topic.”
Unless you’re using it to decide whether a person is ‘fit’ to face legal processes.
Do you have much experience with people of very low IQ, Rev?
No I don’t.
Why do you ask?
ChrispenEvan said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
roughbarked said:
an advertising campain that states, “call the white ant specialists”. is either a complete insult to your intelligence or simply blarb you should probably ignore?
What’s so insulting about a suggestion that someone might know more about dealing with white ants than the average reader of the advert does?
cos white ants is a misnomer, though widely used.
It still seems entirely uninsulting to me.
I don’t know what my IQ is, that’s one of the reasons I decided not to become and intellectual when I was toying with the idea a few years ago.
Rule 303 said:
Divine Angel said:
Some very smart people have zero common sense.
Yeah, I’m talking about people who are incapable of the basics of complex thinking like deductive reasoning, abstract thought.
Everything I have seen on the subject suggests to me that when dealing with individuals an IQ test is a lousy way of assessing people’s abilities in these areas.
What are better ways, I have no idea, but there must be some.
The Rev Dodgson said:
ChrispenEvan said:
The Rev Dodgson said:What’s so insulting about a suggestion that someone might know more about dealing with white ants than the average reader of the advert does?
cos white ants is a misnomer, though widely used.
It still seems entirely uninsulting to me.
i was channelling roughie.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Rule 303 said:
Do you have much experience with people of very low IQ, Rev?
No I don’t.
Why do you ask?
You seem to be taking a very high-level view of the subject, as though you have no understanding of the enormous difference a few IQ points can make, is all.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Rule 303 said:
Divine Angel said:
Some very smart people have zero common sense.
Yeah, I’m talking about people who are incapable of the basics of complex thinking like deductive reasoning, abstract thought.
Everything I have seen on the subject suggests to me that when dealing with individuals an IQ test is a lousy way of assessing people’s abilities in these areas.
What, even the ones that specifically test those areas?
ChrispenEvan said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
ChrispenEvan said:cos white ants is a misnomer, though widely used.
It still seems entirely uninsulting to me.
i was channelling roughie.
And you did a good job :)
Rule 303 said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Rule 303 said:Yeah, I’m talking about people who are incapable of the basics of complex thinking like deductive reasoning, abstract thought.
Everything I have seen on the subject suggests to me that when dealing with individuals an IQ test is a lousy way of assessing people’s abilities in these areas.
What, even the ones that specifically test those areas?
You are moving goalposts. We were talking about standard IQ tests which provide a single number, which is supposed to be an accurate measure of people’s underlying intelligence, independent of culture, education, or previous practice at doing such tests. My point is that everything I have seen suggests that they are a hopeless indicator of this quality, even if it is possible to assign a meaningful single number to “intelligence”, which I doubt.
I’d be skeptical about the accuracy of tests specifically designed for “low IQ” people, but I know nothing about them, so can’t really comment.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Rule 303 said:
The Rev Dodgson said:Everything I have seen on the subject suggests to me that when dealing with individuals an IQ test is a lousy way of assessing people’s abilities in these areas.
What, even the ones that specifically test those areas?
You are moving goalposts. We were talking about standard IQ tests which provide a single number, which is supposed to be an accurate measure of people’s underlying intelligence, independent of culture, education, or previous practice at doing such tests. My point is that everything I have seen suggests that they are a hopeless indicator of this quality, even if it is possible to assign a meaningful single number to “intelligence”, which I doubt.
I’d be skeptical about the accuracy of tests specifically designed for “low IQ” people, but I know nothing about them, so can’t really comment.
I have no basis from which to argue against ‘everything you have seen’. I s’pose I could ask ‘what have you seen?’ but I was bored of the discussion hours ago. So you think IQ tests are bullshit… I accept your opinion.
>We were talking about standard IQ tests which provide a single number.
there’s a correlation between life success and IQ.
transition said:
>We were talking about standard IQ tests which provide a single number.there’s a correlation between life success and IQ.
There’s a correlation between the decline of pirates in the Caribbean and increasing global temperatures…
poikilotherm said:
transition said:
>We were talking about standard IQ tests which provide a single number.there’s a correlation between life success and IQ.
There’s a correlation between the decline of pirates in the Caribbean and increasing global temperatures…
;-) 
transition said:
>We were talking about standard IQ tests which provide a single number.there’s a correlation between life success and IQ.
Sure, but there’s a big scatter, so it’s not something that an individual should put much weight on.
Also at least part of the correlation is due to “life success” being correlated with quality of education and similar, which also affect the IQ.
what about EQ tests