Date: 14/07/2017 12:10:23
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1089615
Subject: Fluoride

I chanced to read a news article about fluoridation (Sun colour supplement from the 1950s) that was timed after fluoridation was introduced in America before it was introduced in Australia. I followed that with a chat with my 96 year old father in law who had actually visited a fluoridation plant many years ago.

It’s rather chastening that it taught me heaps about fluoridation that I never knew before. And opens up a heap more questions.

I already knew that fluoride reacts with the soft hydroxyapatite in tooth enamel to make the more resistant fluorapatite. I already knew that too much fluoride caused teeth mottling and cracking. I already knew that drinking water and toothpaste contains fluoride. I already knew that off-the-shelf after-tap water filters remove some but not all of the fluoride. I knew that my daughter’s teeth at a young age were very much worse than mine were, almost as bad as my wife’s (I grew up in a fluoridated water location. My wife didn’t, she only had fluoride pills and her teeth were much worse than mine). But that’s about the sum of my previous knowledge.

The news article told me that fluoride at a dosage of 0.88 (can’t remember units) in American water supplies cut teeth decay in children under 10 by a factor of three, and further fluoride cut decay a bit more. It told me that this was based on occurrences of natural calcium fluoride found in American water supplies. It said that a study suggested that sodium fluoride was even better than calcium fluoride. It said that the dosage that could be added to toothpaste would be much higher than for water because it wasn’t swallowed, suggesting a higher toxicity for swallowed fluoride. It said that fluoride also acted as an antibiotic, killing the lactobacillus that causes tooth decay. It said that fluoride caused mottling of teeth but didn’t mention cracking, which suggests that the mottling is only a cosmetic problem and occurs at lower water fluoride concentration so serves as an early warning system.

I surmised that the calcium fluoride came from water that had dissolved salts from limestone.

My 96 year old told me that sodium fluoride greatly outperforms calcium fluoride because it is more soluble. Calcium fluoride is only sparingly soluble. But the fluoride added at the fluoridation pant was not sodium fluoride but sodium hexafluoride, formula Na2F6. He said that sodium fluoride was made in the Tomago aluminium smelter by mixing seawater with the product. He said that fluorosilicate had been suggested as a replacement for sodium fluoride/hexafluoride, but he had never seen a study that showed that fluorosilicate was effective. He said that the effectiveness of fluoride was discovered when dentists noted spotting of teeth in certain towns of western USA, and found that the effect depended on location and was independent of race and diet. He said that spotting starts to occur at a concentration of about 2 parts per million. He said that the fluoride was added by diverting a small percentage of the water in a pipeline through a chute into which sodium hexafluoride powder was dropped, before being returned to the main pipeline to complete the mixing. He didn’t say when he visited this plant, but it was when he was “young”, more than 50 years ago.

But that leads to a whole heap of questions.

1. Calcium fluoride vs sodium fluoride vs sodium hexafluoride vs fluorosilicate. How do they compare in effectiveness? Which is used to dose water?

2. I got the impression that that 0.88 was about 8.8 parts per billion, which is about a 200th of the amount that causes spotting of teeth. Is that correct? What is the current dosage used when fluoride is added to water and how much less is that than the dosage that causes minimal dental problems? What is the dosage in toothpaste?

3. All fluoride toothpastes are very strongly flavoured. What is the flavour of calcium fluoride vs sodium fluoride vs sodium hexafluoride vs fluorosilicate and which is added to toothpaste? Is it a strong flavour?

4. Which mineral water / soft drinks contain sufficient fluoride?

5. What is the toxicity of fluoride in water as it relates to bodily organs other than teeth?

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Date: 14/07/2017 12:22:34
From: buffy
ID: 1089618
Subject: re: Fluoride

Do you have the Cochrane link?

http://www.cochrane.org/search/site/fluoride

How much reading do you want?

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Date: 14/07/2017 12:24:46
From: kii
ID: 1089619
Subject: re: Fluoride

http://thisisfabrik.com/pasadena-museum-of-california-art-interstitial-craft-and-folk-art-museum-material-as-metaphor/

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Date: 14/07/2017 12:26:03
From: kii
ID: 1089620
Subject: re: Fluoride

Oops..

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Date: 14/07/2017 12:36:00
From: buffy
ID: 1089624
Subject: re: Fluoride

And at Science Based Medicine:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/cochrane-review-on-your-precious-bodily-fluids-community-water-fluoridation/

Outline of Cochrane review.

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Date: 14/07/2017 12:41:14
From: buffy
ID: 1089629
Subject: re: Fluoride

And a 1991 233page document:

http://www.dentalwatch.org/fl/phs_1991.pdf

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Date: 14/07/2017 12:45:08
From: The_observer
ID: 1089630
Subject: re: Fluoride

>>>I already knew that off-the-shelf after-tap water filters remove some but not all of the fluoride.<<<

to totally remove fluride water would need to pass through a reverse osmosis – deionising filter. But this water is not recommended for drinking because it removes everything a human needs in regards to minerals etc.

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Date: 14/07/2017 12:51:29
From: bob(from black rock)
ID: 1089633
Subject: re: Fluoride

The_observer said:

>>>I already knew that off-the-shelf after-tap water filters remove some but not all of the fluoride.<<<

to totally remove fluride water would need to pass through a reverse osmosis – deionising filter. But this water is not recommended for drinking because it removes everything a human needs in regards to minerals etc.

You should not drink water cos fish fuck in it!

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Date: 14/07/2017 13:06:35
From: dv
ID: 1089637
Subject: re: Fluoride

bob(from black rock) said:


The_observer said:

>>>I already knew that off-the-shelf after-tap water filters remove some but not all of the fluoride.<<<

to totally remove fluride water would need to pass through a reverse osmosis – deionising filter. But this water is not recommended for drinking because it removes everything a human needs in regards to minerals etc.

You should not drink water cos fish fuck in it!

You should also not drink water from lakes, rivers and dams, because they all have fluoride.

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Date: 14/07/2017 13:07:50
From: The_observer
ID: 1089638
Subject: re: Fluoride

dv said:


bob(from black rock) said:

The_observer said:

>>>I already knew that off-the-shelf after-tap water filters remove some but not all of the fluoride.<<<

to totally remove fluride water would need to pass through a reverse osmosis – deionising filter. But this water is not recommended for drinking because it removes everything a human needs in regards to minerals etc.

You should not drink water cos fish fuck in it!

You should also not drink water from lakes, rivers and dams, because they all have fluoride.

yes it occurs naturally, and tastes good too.

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Date: 14/07/2017 13:16:35
From: bob(from black rock)
ID: 1089640
Subject: re: Fluoride

Just don’t drink water from planet earth cos it all has something other than just H2O!

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Date: 14/07/2017 13:16:37
From: bob(from black rock)
ID: 1089641
Subject: re: Fluoride

Just don’t drink water from planet earth cos it all has something other than just H2O!

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Date: 14/07/2017 13:20:29
From: dv
ID: 1089645
Subject: re: Fluoride

bob(from black rock) said:


Just don’t drink water from planet earth cos it all has something other than just H2O!

And don’t drink H2O … that’s stuff’ll kill you

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Date: 14/07/2017 19:43:35
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1089810
Subject: re: Fluoride

buffy said:

Do you have the Cochrane link?

http://www.cochrane.org/search/site/fluoride

http://www.dentalwatch.org/fl/phs_1991.pdf

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/cochrane-review-on-your-precious-bodily-fluids-community-water-fluoridation/

How much reading do you want?

Am reading phs_1991.pdf.

Good on physical effects.
Poor on statistics – trends and correlations.
Doesn’t give sources of fluoride or advantages and disadvantages of different forms.

From that source, I was wrong about the “0.88”. It seems to indeed be parts per million. Tooth decay (deft) is still decreasing at 1.0 ppm. (see figure below).

Teeth mottling has been observed at as low a water fluoride concentration as 1.05 ppm, and tends always to occur at 1.9 ppm and above, in water.

About sources of fluoride, there doesn’t seem to be such a thing as “sodium hexafluoride” – which is a relief because valencies don’t match. It must have been aluminium sodium hexafluoride (AlNa3F6), which makes sense because the source is an aluminium smelter.

“Fluorosilicate” is probably sodium fluorosilicate Na2(SiF6). Wikipedia calls this “a toxic chemical”.

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Date: 15/07/2017 00:55:19
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1089960
Subject: re: Fluoride

sounds good

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Date: 15/07/2017 05:48:40
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1089975
Subject: re: Fluoride

SCIENCE said:


sounds good

Not too good. Fluoride levels in toothpaste have been decreased.

Further, at least one scientific paper has noted reducing levels of fluorapatite in the teeth of children in both South Australia and Western Australia between those born Circa 1990 and Circa 2000.

And I still haven’t got answers to questions of whether different fluoride additives have different potencies. Different tastes. And levels in mineral water and soft drinks.

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Date: 15/07/2017 08:34:53
From: wookiemeister
ID: 1089982
Subject: re: Fluoride

In practical terms the take away understanding is

It is rarely if ever removed from the drinking water supply – you get to drink it whether you “believe” in its miraculous properties or not.

Its concentration in drinking water supplies is about the same as the chlorine product in swimming pool water.

If brushing your teeth with it is good then drinking it must be even better.

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Date: 15/07/2017 15:20:52
From: Ian
ID: 1090115
Subject: re: Fluoride

I can’t answer any of your questions molly but am quietly impressed by the amount a information retained by your FIL after one (?) visit to a fluoridation plant.

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