On Q&A last night some so-called Liberal bloke said that SA energy prices were the highest in the country.

The table here:
http://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#average-price-table

supports that historically, although in September there have been many days when they are not the highest.

But the variation over time, even when averaged over a year, is far higher than the differences between states.

So my question is, given that capital expenditure is a large part of energy supply costs, how can there be such a huge variation in the price?

Are we being ripped off?

I got out the figures for the business the other day. I’ve got numbers going back to the early 90’s. Before that the bill didn’t tell you your usage, so you can’t do much with it. Whether I work it out as cents per kWh or money per day, it’s taken nearly 30 years to double. And there was a period in the 90’s when it got cheaper. Then we got smart meters, and the total went up because we were being charged the cost of the smart meter over time. My more recent figures have to be adjusted though, because 5 years ago I took the practice to a 4 day week, and last year down to a three day week. But however you do it, it’s not been a rampant rise.

It is my opinion that people use a lot more electricity domestically now than we did even 20 years ago. And if you use it, you have to pay for it.

The Rev Dodgson said:

On Q&A last night some so-called Liberal bloke said that SA energy prices were the highest in the country.

The table here:
http://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#average-price-table

supports that historically, although in September there have been many days when they are not the highest.

But the variation over time, even when averaged over a year, is far higher than the differences between states.

So my question is, given that capital expenditure is a large part of energy supply costs, how can there be such a huge variation in the price?

Are we being ripped off?

I think we are but how can we improve it?

I used 33% less power this period than the same period last year. The bill was $250 higher.

roughbarked said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

On Q&A last night some so-called Liberal bloke said that SA energy prices were the highest in the country.

The table here:
http://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#average-price-table

supports that historically, although in September there have been many days when they are not the highest.

But the variation over time, even when averaged over a year, is far higher than the differences between states.

So my question is, given that capital expenditure is a large part of energy supply costs, how can there be such a huge variation in the price?

Are we being ripped off?

I think we are but how can we improve it?

I used 33% less power this period than the same period last year. The bill was $250 higher.

On the plus side, you saved far more with your 33% usage reduction than you would have done if prices had remained constant :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

On Q&A last night some so-called Liberal bloke said that SA energy prices were the highest in the country.

The table here:
http://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#average-price-table

supports that historically, although in September there have been many days when they are not the highest.

But the variation over time, even when averaged over a year, is far higher than the differences between states.

So my question is, given that capital expenditure is a large part of energy supply costs, how can there be such a huge variation in the price?

Gas sets the wholesale prices in the NEM as it’s the marginal cost producer so maybe variations in wholesale gas price cause the variations.

Just been looking at “Power Wall” prices.

Apart from the lack of non-Tesla products, it does look worth investigating, even for those without solar.

How come all the incentives are to install solar, when what we are really short of is backup storage?

It’s expensive because we are now building two systems.
One system to have all the you beaut free electricity and another system to backup the all singing all dancing you beaut free electricity when it’s not working.

And then you overlay that with our electricity now being in the hands of corporate profit orientated companies who bought it off the tax payers for a song when the various state governments sold it to overcome a short term budget hole with an eye on the next election.

Privatisation and failure to invest in transmission infrastructure have kind of fucked things up in most states. There is a big infrastructure deficit to be overcome.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Just been looking at “Power Wall” prices.

Apart from the lack of non-Tesla products, it does look worth investigating, even for those without solar.

How come all the incentives are to install solar, when what we are really short of is backup storage?

Because the power wall system is generally not back-up. It is normally a grid connect system only. If the grid fails the system turns off and does not go into an island mode. AFAIK you can get systems that will island but they are more expensive than the standard installation.

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Just been looking at “Power Wall” prices.

Apart from the lack of non-Tesla products, it does look worth investigating, even for those without solar.

How come all the incentives are to install solar, when what we are really short of is backup storage?

Because the power wall system is generally not back-up. It is normally a grid connect system only. If the grid fails the system turns off and does not go into an island mode. AFAIK you can get systems that will island but they are more expensive than the standard installation.

So what is the point of the Power Wall then?

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Just been looking at “Power Wall” prices.

Apart from the lack of non-Tesla products, it does look worth investigating, even for those without solar.

How come all the incentives are to install solar, when what we are really short of is backup storage?

Because the power wall system is generally not back-up. It is normally a grid connect system only. If the grid fails the system turns off and does not go into an island mode. AFAIK you can get systems that will island but they are more expensive than the standard installation.

So what is the point of the Power Wall then?

Systems with battery back-up can regulate the amount of power you draw from the grid. If you have excess solar generation during the day then this excess can be used to charge the battery. When the sun goes down you can use the stored energy to provide your needs rather than drawing from the grid. In this way battery storage systems do smooth out the amount of power that the grid has to provide.

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

Because the power wall system is generally not back-up.

So what is the point of the Power Wall then?

Systems with battery back-up can regulate the amount of power you draw from the grid.

I still don’t get it, sorry. I’ve cut quite a bit of stuff off what you said so you see why. One statement seems to contradict the other.

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

So what is the point of the Power Wall then?

Systems with battery back-up can regulate the amount of power you draw from the grid.

I still don’t get it, sorry. I’ve cut quite a bit of stuff off what you said so you see why. One statement seems to contradict the other.

If you charge the batteries up during the day by using excess solar power then you can use this energy at night to supply your energy needs. Therefore you are not drawing energy from the grid when the battery is powering your system.

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

Systems with battery back-up can regulate the amount of power you draw from the grid.

I still don’t get it, sorry. I’ve cut quite a bit of stuff off what you said so you see why. One statement seems to contradict the other.

If you charge the batteries up during the day by using excess solar power then you can use this energy at night to supply your energy needs. Therefore you are not drawing energy from the grid when the battery is powering your system.

I get that bit. I don’t get that it’s not a back-up.

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

Systems with battery back-up can regulate the amount of power you draw from the grid.

I still don’t get it, sorry. I’ve cut quite a bit of stuff off what you said so you see why. One statement seems to contradict the other.

If you charge the batteries up during the day by using excess solar power then you can use this energy at night to supply your energy needs. Therefore you are not drawing energy from the grid when the battery is powering your system.

Meanwhile the power company with fixed costs has to charge more to the customers who don’t have solar and power walls. Or the same to all, but those who don’t have solar pay more overall.

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

I still don’t get it, sorry. I’ve cut quite a bit of stuff off what you said so you see why. One statement seems to contradict the other.

If you charge the batteries up during the day by using excess solar power then you can use this energy at night to supply your energy needs. Therefore you are not drawing energy from the grid when the battery is powering your system.

I get that bit. I don’t get that it’s not a back-up.

to work when the grid goes down requires different control systems than what these powerwalls have.

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

I still don’t get it, sorry. I’ve cut quite a bit of stuff off what you said so you see why. One statement seems to contradict the other.

If you charge the batteries up during the day by using excess solar power then you can use this energy at night to supply your energy needs. Therefore you are not drawing energy from the grid when the battery is powering your system.

I get that bit. I don’t get that it’s not a back-up.

If the mains fails then these systems are forced to turn off so as not to try to feed back into a dead grid – called anti-islanding protection. This is to protect both the inverter, and more importantly any electrical workers who may be hanging off the power lines. They generally don’t like a system that they have just turned off be livened up by soeone’s solar inverter.

Generally solar inverters are designed that they just cannot operate without a grid voltage present. hand waving very general bullshit follows They don’t actually generate a voltage at their output but instead use current injection into an already live circuit. If the grid voltage fails the inverter immediately turns off. if you want to have a system that works in both on-grid and off-grid modes then you need a special inverter that can operate in two different modes of operation. You then run into quite strict requirements on your system which will require expensive protection relays and a way that the system can be electrically isolated from the grid when the mains is down. All adds up to be quite an expensive operation.

Taxpayers give $300m to Saudi billionaire for solar plant that makes 2% of old dying coal plant’s power.

It will only take 50 plants like this, and $15 billion spare dollars, to replace the Liddell coal station (8,000GWh), now slated for closure in 2022.

$300m handout to Saudi tycoon for solar farm
Australians are set to pay $300 million in subsidies to an outback solar farm owned by a Saudi Arabian billionaire in a new test of the federal government’s looming energy reforms, escalating a dispute over whether to cut the handouts to keep coal-fired power stations alive.

AGL’s controversial Liddell coal power station in the NSW Hunter Valley generates 50 times as much electricity as the Moree solar farm in the state’s north, which stands to gain big subsidies from households from higher electricity bills until 2030…

But we need more chinese-built glass panels that make green weather-controlling electrons.

Lucky solar power is so competitive. Look at the money roll…

The Moree solar farm generates 150,000 megawatt hours of electricity a year, about 0.08 per cent of the 200 terawatt hours produced on the national electricity market every year. The project is forecast to collect about $50m in payments over the next four years and $90m in the following decade under the existing RET.

Subsidies piled on subsidies? Does one gravy train know where the others are going?

These subsidies, funded by electricity customers, will add to taxpayer aid including a $101.7m direct grant from the Australian Renewable Energy Agency and a $60m concessional loan from the Clean Energy Finance Corporation.

AGL is getting even more:

The Australian yesterday reported that AGL stood to receive $589m from the grants and subsidies for two solar projects over the period to 2030,…

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

If you charge the batteries up during the day by using excess solar power then you can use this energy at night to supply your energy needs. Therefore you are not drawing energy from the grid when the battery is powering your system.

I get that bit. I don’t get that it’s not a back-up.

If the mains fails then these systems are forced to turn off so as not to try to feed back into a dead grid – called anti-islanding protection. This is to protect both the inverter, and more importantly any electrical workers who may be hanging off the power lines. They generally don’t like a system that they have just turned off be livened up by soeone’s solar inverter.

Generally solar inverters are designed that they just cannot operate without a grid voltage present. hand waving very general bullshit follows They don’t actually generate a voltage at their output but instead use current injection into an already live circuit. If the grid voltage fails the inverter immediately turns off. if you want to have a system that works in both on-grid and off-grid modes then you need a special inverter that can operate in two different modes of operation. You then run into quite strict requirements on your system which will require expensive protection relays and a way that the system can be electrically isolated from the grid when the mains is down. All adds up to be quite an expensive operation.

BigElectron certainly has us by the balls.

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Just been looking at “Power Wall” prices.

Apart from the lack of non-Tesla products, it does look worth investigating, even for those without solar.

How come all the incentives are to install solar, when what we are really short of is backup storage?

Because the power wall system is generally not back-up. It is normally a grid connect system only. If the grid fails the system turns off and does not go into an island mode. AFAIK you can get systems that will island but they are more expensive than the standard installation.

But if everyone had battery supply to use at peak times, that would greatly reduce the chance of the grid failing, wouldn’t it?

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Just been looking at “Power Wall” prices.

Apart from the lack of non-Tesla products, it does look worth investigating, even for those without solar.

How come all the incentives are to install solar, when what we are really short of is backup storage?

Because the power wall system is generally not back-up. It is normally a grid connect system only. If the grid fails the system turns off and does not go into an island mode. AFAIK you can get systems that will island but they are more expensive than the standard installation.

But if everyone had battery supply to use at peak times, that would greatly reduce the chance of the grid failing, wouldn’t it?

Maybe :)

Yes, if the grid could handle it, the problem being that the grid was designed to be a system that provides power and all the fault calculations, protections schemes and devices were designed with that in mind. When you begin to place a substantial amount of energy generation at the low voltage side in many cases they reach a breaking point where the fault currents exceed the original design parameters and the voltage rise on the system becomes excessive. So many of the DNSPs (Distribution Network Service Provider) are now limiting how much embedded generation can be placed onto their grid and are doing so for quite valid technical reasons.

sibeen said:

Yes, if the grid could handle it, the problem being that the grid was designed to be a system that provides power and all the fault calculations, protections schemes and devices were designed with that in mind. When you begin to place a substantial amount of energy generation at the low voltage side in many cases they reach a breaking point where the fault currents exceed the original design parameters and the voltage rise on the system becomes excessive. So many of the DNSPs (Distribution Network Service Provider) are now limiting how much embedded generation can be placed onto their grid and are doing so for quite valid technical reasons.

OK, so what are you doing to fix that? :)

Peak Warming Man said:

It’s expensive because we are now building two systems.
One system to have all the you beaut free electricity and another system to backup the all singing all dancing you beaut free electricity when it’s not working.

And then you overlay that with our electricity now being in the hands of corporate profit orientated companies who bought it off the tax payers for a song when the various state governments sold it to overcome a short term budget hole with an eye on the next election.

That seems like it would be a good idea to switch the cost of the energy storage infrastructure to the consumers then (both residential and industrial).

Trying to hide the cost doesn’t seem like a great idea to me.

sibeen said:

Michael V said:

sibeen said:

If you charge the batteries up during the day by using excess solar power then you can use this energy at night to supply your energy needs. Therefore you are not drawing energy from the grid when the battery is powering your system.

I get that bit. I don’t get that it’s not a back-up.

If the mains fails then these systems are forced to turn off so as not to try to feed back into a dead grid – called anti-islanding protection. This is to protect both the inverter, and more importantly any electrical workers who may be hanging off the power lines. They generally don’t like a system that they have just turned off be livened up by soeone’s solar inverter.

Generally solar inverters are designed that they just cannot operate without a grid voltage present. hand waving very general bullshit follows They don’t actually generate a voltage at their output but instead use current injection into an already live circuit. If the grid voltage fails the inverter immediately turns off. if you want to have a system that works in both on-grid and off-grid modes then you need a special inverter that can operate in two different modes of operation. You then run into quite strict requirements on your system which will require expensive protection relays and a way that the system can be electrically isolated from the grid when the mains is down. All adds up to be quite an expensive operation.

OK, thanks.

So is the power wall just isolated from the grid all the time?

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

Yes, if the grid could handle it, the problem being that the grid was designed to be a system that provides power and all the fault calculations, protections schemes and devices were designed with that in mind. When you begin to place a substantial amount of energy generation at the low voltage side in many cases they reach a breaking point where the fault currents exceed the original design parameters and the voltage rise on the system becomes excessive. So many of the DNSPs (Distribution Network Service Provider) are now limiting how much embedded generation can be placed onto their grid and are doing so for quite valid technical reasons.

OK, so what are you doing to fix that? :)

So is it true to say then that some of the problem that we’re seeing at the moment in regards to Distribution costs is associated with unforeseen transition from an almost 100% centralised generation system to what is now a more decentrailised?

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

Yes, if the grid could handle it, the problem being that the grid was designed to be a system that provides power and all the fault calculations, protections schemes and devices were designed with that in mind. When you begin to place a substantial amount of energy generation at the low voltage side in many cases they reach a breaking point where the fault currents exceed the original design parameters and the voltage rise on the system becomes excessive. So many of the DNSPs (Distribution Network Service Provider) are now limiting how much embedded generation can be placed onto their grid and are doing so for quite valid technical reasons.

OK, so what are you doing to fix that? :)

So is it true to say then that some of the problem that we’re seeing at the moment in regards to Distribution costs is associated with unforeseen transition from an almost 100% centralised generation system to what is now a more decentrailised?

And if the answer to that question is “yes”, it raises the question, how can this have been “unforseen”?

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

OK, so what are you doing to fix that? :)

So is it true to say then that some of the problem that we’re seeing at the moment in regards to Distribution costs is associated with unforeseen transition from an almost 100% centralised generation system to what is now a more decentrailised?

And if the answer to that question is “yes”, it raises the question, how can this have been “unforseen”?

I don’t think it’s surprising that a distribution system that is 50 years old didn’t consider large scale decentralised (essentially domestic) power generation

what I do find surprising however, is that this wasn’t highlighted when the government started offering crazy town feed-in rebates for domestic solar.

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

Yes, if the grid could handle it, the problem being that the grid was designed to be a system that provides power and all the fault calculations, protections schemes and devices were designed with that in mind. When you begin to place a substantial amount of energy generation at the low voltage side in many cases they reach a breaking point where the fault currents exceed the original design parameters and the voltage rise on the system becomes excessive. So many of the DNSPs (Distribution Network Service Provider) are now limiting how much embedded generation can be placed onto their grid and are doing so for quite valid technical reasons.

OK, so what are you doing to fix that? :)

becoming richer than a weather girl.

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

So is it true to say then that some of the problem that we’re seeing at the moment in regards to Distribution costs is associated with unforeseen transition from an almost 100% centralised generation system to what is now a more decentrailised?

And if the answer to that question is “yes”, it raises the question, how can this have been “unforseen”?

I don’t think it’s surprising that a distribution system that is 50 years old didn’t consider large scale decentralised (essentially domestic) power generation

what I do find surprising however, is that this wasn’t highlighted when the government started offering crazy town feed-in rebates for domestic solar.

I can get the crazy town feed-in rebates for domestic solar

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

So is it true to say then that some of the problem that we’re seeing at the moment in regards to Distribution costs is associated with unforeseen transition from an almost 100% centralised generation system to what is now a more decentrailised?

And if the answer to that question is “yes”, it raises the question, how can this have been “unforseen”?

I don’t think it’s surprising that a distribution system that is 50 years old didn’t consider large scale decentralised (essentially domestic) power generation

what I do find surprising however, is that this wasn’t highlighted when the government started offering crazy town feed-in rebates for domestic solar.

OK for 50 years ago, but there is a lot of money being spent on upgrading the distribution system, so adapting it for domestic solar generation and domestic storage is surely all part of the plan, isn’t it?

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

And if the answer to that question is “yes”, it raises the question, how can this have been “unforseen”?

I don’t think it’s surprising that a distribution system that is 50 years old didn’t consider large scale decentralised (essentially domestic) power generation

what I do find surprising however, is that this wasn’t highlighted when the government started offering crazy town feed-in rebates for domestic solar.

OK for 50 years ago, but there is a lot of money being spent on upgrading the distribution system, so adapting it for domestic solar generation and domestic storage is surely all part of the plan, isn’t it?

ha.

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

And if the answer to that question is “yes”, it raises the question, how can this have been “unforseen”?

I don’t think it’s surprising that a distribution system that is 50 years old didn’t consider large scale decentralised (essentially domestic) power generation

what I do find surprising however, is that this wasn’t highlighted when the government started offering crazy town feed-in rebates for domestic solar.

OK for 50 years ago, but there is a lot of money being spent on upgrading the distribution system, so adapting it for domestic solar generation and domestic storage is surely all part of the plan, isn’t it?

I would hope so…

but then I’m just a dumb-arse mining engineer, not one of them smarty-pants electrical engineers… so what would I know??

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

So is it true to say then that some of the problem that we’re seeing at the moment in regards to Distribution costs is associated with unforeseen transition from an almost 100% centralised generation system to what is now a more decentrailised?

And if the answer to that question is “yes”, it raises the question, how can this have been “unforseen”?

I don’t think it’s surprising that a distribution system that is 50 years old didn’t consider large scale decentralised (essentially domestic) power generation

what I do find surprising however, is that this wasn’t highlighted when the government started offering crazy town feed-in rebates for domestic solar.

What? A politician making a decision without any technical input…well, I never.

:)

Politicians don’t research.

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

And if the answer to that question is “yes”, it raises the question, how can this have been “unforseen”?

I don’t think it’s surprising that a distribution system that is 50 years old didn’t consider large scale decentralised (essentially domestic) power generation

what I do find surprising however, is that this wasn’t highlighted when the government started offering crazy town feed-in rebates for domestic solar.

OK for 50 years ago, but there is a lot of money being spent on upgrading the distribution system, so adapting it for domestic solar generation and domestic storage is surely all part of the plan, isn’t it?

The major upgrades to the distribution systems are at the very high voltage levels. Your average domestic, commercial areas are fed via 11 or 22 kV. There’s not that much work going on in these areas.

In some ways I do feel for the DNSPs. Their business is selling energy. If they spend money upgrading the suburban grid so that more embedded generation can be fed in they are cutting their own throats.

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

diddly-squat said:

I don’t think it’s surprising that a distribution system that is 50 years old didn’t consider large scale decentralised (essentially domestic) power generation

what I do find surprising however, is that this wasn’t highlighted when the government started offering crazy town feed-in rebates for domestic solar.

OK for 50 years ago, but there is a lot of money being spent on upgrading the distribution system, so adapting it for domestic solar generation and domestic storage is surely all part of the plan, isn’t it?

The major upgrades to the distribution systems are at the very high voltage levels. Your average domestic, commercial areas are fed via 11 or 22 kV. There’s not that much work going on in these areas.

In some ways I do feel for the DNSPs. Their business is selling energy. If they spend money upgrading the suburban grid so that more embedded generation can be fed in they are cutting their own throats.

so what would need to be done to transition the suburban grids to account for the increase in embedded generation??

are we talking major structural change in how the system works or just new widgets here and there to do them fancy electrical magics

sibeen said:

In some ways I do feel for the DNSPs. Their business is selling energy. If they spend money upgrading the suburban grid so that more embedded generation can be fed in they are cutting their own throats.

Yeah, if only we had a liberal government that believed in setting up pricing mechanisms so that planned outcomes could be achieved efficiently through the market, rather than attempting to do it by centralised government regulation.

sibeen said:

In some ways I do feel for the DNSPs.

Renationalise the grid.

dv said:

sibeen said:

In some ways I do feel for the DNSPs.

Renationalise the grid.

Something that’s over 50 years old needs replacing with something new.

diddly-squat said:

sibeen said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

OK for 50 years ago, but there is a lot of money being spent on upgrading the distribution system, so adapting it for domestic solar generation and domestic storage is surely all part of the plan, isn’t it?

The major upgrades to the distribution systems are at the very high voltage levels. Your average domestic, commercial areas are fed via 11 or 22 kV. There’s not that much work going on in these areas.

In some ways I do feel for the DNSPs. Their business is selling energy. If they spend money upgrading the suburban grid so that more embedded generation can be fed in they are cutting their own throats.

so what would need to be done to transition the suburban grids to account for the increase in embedded generation??

are we talking major structural change in how the system works or just new widgets here and there to do them fancy electrical magics

I don’t really know, it is a bit outside my area. I’m dealing with a lot of the DNSPs on embedded generation projects and so know that they are putting some quite stringent processes in place that I need to comply to. Admittedly my embedded generation projects are more in the ballpark of 500 kVA, so not exactly domestic :)

I know everyone here is a huge fan of Elon Musk so I hope I don’t offend anyone by rolling my eyes at the news stories like this one:

http://www.greenmatters.com/living/2017/08/24/1OCyql/people-are-building-their-own-tesla-powerwalls-out-of-laptop-batteries
PEOPLE ARE BUILDING THEIR OWN TESLA POWERWALLS OUT OF LAPTOP BATTERIES

Tesla isn’t the only name in the game of home power storage, they didn’t invent the idea, so there’s no need to name drop them like this.

You might as well say “People are making their own OCEAN SPRAY ORANGE JUICE at home!”

sibeen said:

diddly-squat said:

sibeen said:

The major upgrades to the distribution systems are at the very high voltage levels. Your average domestic, commercial areas are fed via 11 or 22 kV. There’s not that much work going on in these areas.

In some ways I do feel for the DNSPs. Their business is selling energy. If they spend money upgrading the suburban grid so that more embedded generation can be fed in they are cutting their own throats.

so what would need to be done to transition the suburban grids to account for the increase in embedded generation??

are we talking major structural change in how the system works or just new widgets here and there to do them fancy electrical magics

I don’t really know, it is a bit outside my area. I’m dealing with a lot of the DNSPs on embedded generation projects and so know that they are putting some quite stringent processes in place that I need to comply to. Admittedly my embedded generation projects are more in the ballpark of 500 kVA, so not exactly domestic :)

but is your gut feel,

• inherent re-design, or
• retrofit existing infrastructure

diddly-squat said:

sibeen said:

diddly-squat said:

so what would need to be done to transition the suburban grids to account for the increase in embedded generation??

are we talking major structural change in how the system works or just new widgets here and there to do them fancy electrical magics

I don’t really know, it is a bit outside my area. I’m dealing with a lot of the DNSPs on embedded generation projects and so know that they are putting some quite stringent processes in place that I need to comply to. Admittedly my embedded generation projects are more in the ballpark of 500 kVA, so not exactly domestic :)

but is your gut feel,

• inherent re-design, or
• retrofit existing infrastructure

The latter.

dv said:

I know everyone here is a huge fan of Elon Musk so I hope I don’t offend anyone by rolling my eyes at the news stories like this one:

http://www.greenmatters.com/living/2017/08/24/1OCyql/people-are-building-their-own-tesla-powerwalls-out-of-laptop-batteries
PEOPLE ARE BUILDING THEIR OWN TESLA POWERWALLS OUT OF LAPTOP BATTERIES

Tesla isn’t the only name in the game of home power storage, they didn’t invent the idea, so there’s no need to name drop them like this.

You might as well say “People are making their own OCEAN SPRAY ORANGE JUICE at home!”

You have to hand it to Tesla, they are an incredible marketing organisation.

sibeen said:

diddly-squat said:

sibeen said:

I don’t really know, it is a bit outside my area. I’m dealing with a lot of the DNSPs on embedded generation projects and so know that they are putting some quite stringent processes in place that I need to comply to. Admittedly my embedded generation projects are more in the ballpark of 500 kVA, so not exactly domestic :)

but is your gut feel,

• inherent re-design, or
• retrofit existing infrastructure

The latter.

but in either case, we’re talking about a requirement for significant investment

diddly-squat said:

sibeen said:

diddly-squat said:

but is your gut feel,

• inherent re-design, or
• retrofit existing infrastructure

The latter.

but in either case, we’re talking about a requirement for significant investment

Aye. Working at HV levels is not cheap.

The whole point of the increasing scarcity of cheap power is to drive power prices and thus taxes and profits up.

wookiemeister said:

The whole point of the increasing scarcity of cheap power is to drive power prices and thus taxes and profits up.

and what part of that isn’t snouts in the trough?

People are kinda stupid. Its gone too far and the situation can’t be retrieved, end of a civilzation and all that jazz. People on the gov wage packet don’t care , and joe average is too brainless to resist or think.

My next investment will be something like a 20 kw solar array and battery system. I’ll probably be ok for other people, well its going to be painful, c’est le vie.

wookiemeister said:

People are kinda stupid. Its gone too far and the situation can’t be retrieved, end of a civilzation and all that jazz. People on the gov wage packet don’t care , and joe average is too brainless to resist or think.

My next investment will be something like a 20 kw solar array and battery system. I’ll probably be ok for other people, well its going to be painful, c’est le vie.

I put it to you that the people who did the pioneering of going off grid or even those who opted to make the grid pay them for it, have already reaped their rewards.

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

People are kinda stupid. Its gone too far and the situation can’t be retrieved, end of a civilzation and all that jazz. People on the gov wage packet don’t care , and joe average is too brainless to resist or think.

My next investment will be something like a 20 kw solar array and battery system. I’ll probably be ok for other people, well its going to be painful, c’est le vie.

I put it to you that the people who did the pioneering of going off grid or even those who opted to make the grid pay them for it, have already reaped their rewards.

Maybe yes / no

The government could make connection fees 1000 a year so even if you had solar you’ll still pay through the nose for power.

2 take money away from people

The function of a government is limited

1 always make sure theres unemployment

2 always make sure you take money away from people

3 make sure 1 and 2 are in operation

4 a government must always be seriously in debt

wookiemeister said:

roughbarked said:

wookiemeister said:

People are kinda stupid. Its gone too far and the situation can’t be retrieved, end of a civilzation and all that jazz. People on the gov wage packet don’t care , and joe average is too brainless to resist or think.

My next investment will be something like a 20 kw solar array and battery system. I’ll probably be ok for other people, well its going to be painful, c’est le vie.

I put it to you that the people who did the pioneering of going off grid or even those who opted to make the grid pay them for it, have already reaped their rewards.

Maybe yes / no

The government could make connection fees 1000 a year so even if you had solar you’ll still pay through the nose for power.

The governments have been washing their hands of the issue for quite some time now.

Remember when kevin rudd gave everyone including dead people 900 dollars?

Imagine if that money had been spent on a huge rwnewable energy system instead of tvs, beer and pokies??

Instead of blowing 1.2 billion or more on a stadium in perth they invested in creating cheap power ??

wookiemeister said:

Remember when kevin rudd gave everyone including dead people 900 dollars?

Imagine if that money had been spent on a huge rwnewable energy system instead of tvs, beer and pokies??

Instead of blowing 1.2 billion or more on a stadium in perth they invested in creating cheap power ??

I don’t. Because he gave me fuck all.

The Rev Dodgson said:

On Q&A last night some so-called Liberal bloke said that SA energy prices were the highest in the country.

The table here:
http://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#average-price-table

supports that historically, although in September there have been many days when they are not the highest.

But the variation over time, even when averaged over a year, is far higher than the differences between states.

So my question is, given that capital expenditure is a large part of energy supply costs, how can there be such a huge variation in the price?

Are we being ripped off?

Remember the engineering. Power is lost in the transmission line over the distance between generation and consumer.
Even if the generation cost is the same, which it isn’t, by the time it reaches the consumer the cost is different.

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

On Q&A last night some so-called Liberal bloke said that SA energy prices were the highest in the country.

The table here:
http://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#average-price-table

supports that historically, although in September there have been many days when they are not the highest.

But the variation over time, even when averaged over a year, is far higher than the differences between states.

So my question is, given that capital expenditure is a large part of energy supply costs, how can there be such a huge variation in the price?

Are we being ripped off?

Remember the engineering. Power is lost in the transmission line over the distance between generation and consumer.
Even if the generation cost is the same, which it isn’t, by the time it reaches the consumer the cost is different.

That would be a good reason for the (slightly) higher cost in SA, but doesn’t explain the huge variation from year to year (both up and down).

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

On Q&A last night some so-called Liberal bloke said that SA energy prices were the highest in the country.

The table here:
http://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#average-price-table

supports that historically, although in September there have been many days when they are not the highest.

But the variation over time, even when averaged over a year, is far higher than the differences between states.

So my question is, given that capital expenditure is a large part of energy supply costs, how can there be such a huge variation in the price?

Are we being ripped off?

Remember the engineering. Power is lost in the transmission line over the distance between generation and consumer.
Even if the generation cost is the same, which it isn’t, by the time it reaches the consumer the cost is different.

That would be a good reason for the (slightly) higher cost in SA, but doesn’t explain the huge variation from year to year (both up and down).

true enough.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

On Q&A last night some so-called Liberal bloke said that SA energy prices were the highest in the country.

The table here:
http://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#average-price-table

supports that historically, although in September there have been many days when they are not the highest.

But the variation over time, even when averaged over a year, is far higher than the differences between states.

So my question is, given that capital expenditure is a large part of energy supply costs, how can there be such a huge variation in the price?

Are we being ripped off?

Remember the engineering. Power is lost in the transmission line over the distance between generation and consumer.
Even if the generation cost is the same, which it isn’t, by the time it reaches the consumer the cost is different.

That would be a good reason for the (slightly) higher cost in SA, but doesn’t explain the huge variation from year to year (both up and down).

Supply and demand? There are people whose job is to buy blocs of power, depending on what period they are buying for competition would be higher.

I am scootering off to the pub but for those interested, in today’s National Press Club

Rod Sims
Premiere, CC, Live
Rod Sims, Chairman of the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission addresses the National Press Club on the topic ‘Shining A Light: Australia’s Gas and Electricity Affordability Problem’.

I was reading about the AGL coal station, takes 40 minutes for the turbine to stop spinning after shut down. That’s some serious rotational energy.