Pumped hydro storage ‘could make Australia run on renewable energy alone within 20 years’
Australia has the capacity to store up to 1,000 times more renewable energy than it could ever conceivably need, according to an analysis by researchers at the Australian National University (ANU).
more…
Some confusion in the comments about storage and generation.
This appears to me to be storage and generation.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Some confusion in the comments about storage and generation.This appears to me to be storage and generation.
?
It clearly says they are talking about pumped storage, with the stored energy coming from solar and wind.
Pumped storage does have some generation of course, from the rainfall within the catchment of the upper storage, but that would typically be only a small part of the total energy output.
On 7:30 last night.. Steelmaker Sanjeev Gupta teams with Ross Garnaut to run factories using renewable energy
It’s a bit light on detail but sounds interesting…
Steel baron Sanjeev Gupta and climate change expert Ross Garnaut sound like strange bedfellows.
But they’re teaming up in an effort to disprove conventional wisdom that you can’t run a steel mill with renewable energy.
In the process, they’re also aiming to deliver much cheaper electricity, to improve the competitiveness of Australian steel-making and possibly bring down household power bills as well.
Key points:
Together, they’re planning to set up an array of renewable energy, that will include solar, pumped hydro and “a bit” of battery to feed the company’s energy hungry steel-mills and provide any excess power into the grid.
First published September 9
Most of it won’t happen. Here’s why …
It’s a state election year, and what better than to announce a brave new, multi billion pumped-hydro phantasmagorical bonanza for the state. Fifteen dams, two new Basslinks, Tasmania the national hero. The sort of grand vision that can get governments elected.
Meanwhile, our Prime Minister is being dogged left, right and centre by a hopelessly failing national energy market and is throwing money around like nobody’s business to look like he is on top of it all.
Put those two political ingredients together and then read between the lines in media those ebullient headlines about how plucky little Tasmania is going to save the nation. We won’t do that. We can’t do it. But we do stand to gain a few million in feasibility studies and that is what this is mostly about.
more..
http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php?/weblog/article/a-pumped-hydro-bonanza-for-tasmania-/show_comments
sarahs mum said:
First published September 9Most of it won’t happen. Here’s why …
It’s a state election year, and what better than to announce a brave new, multi billion pumped-hydro phantasmagorical bonanza for the state. Fifteen dams, two new Basslinks, Tasmania the national hero. The sort of grand vision that can get governments elected.
Meanwhile, our Prime Minister is being dogged left, right and centre by a hopelessly failing national energy market and is throwing money around like nobody’s business to look like he is on top of it all.
Put those two political ingredients together and then read between the lines in media those ebullient headlines about how plucky little Tasmania is going to save the nation. We won’t do that. We can’t do it. But we do stand to gain a few million in feasibility studies and that is what this is mostly about.
more..
http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php?/weblog/article/a-pumped-hydro-bonanza-for-tasmania-/show_comments
Hmmm…
More politics driven comment.
It makes sense for Tasmania to provide more pumped storage capacity to Victoria, and it seems to me that that almost certainly will happen.
But providing pumped storage for the whole country? Obviously not. Is anyone even suggesting that?
The Rev Dodgson said:
sarahs mum said:
First published September 9Most of it won’t happen. Here’s why …
It’s a state election year, and what better than to announce a brave new, multi billion pumped-hydro phantasmagorical bonanza for the state. Fifteen dams, two new Basslinks, Tasmania the national hero. The sort of grand vision that can get governments elected.
Meanwhile, our Prime Minister is being dogged left, right and centre by a hopelessly failing national energy market and is throwing money around like nobody’s business to look like he is on top of it all.
Put those two political ingredients together and then read between the lines in media those ebullient headlines about how plucky little Tasmania is going to save the nation. We won’t do that. We can’t do it. But we do stand to gain a few million in feasibility studies and that is what this is mostly about.
more..
http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php?/weblog/article/a-pumped-hydro-bonanza-for-tasmania-/show_comments
Hmmm…
More politics driven comment.
It makes sense for Tasmania to provide more pumped storage capacity to Victoria, and it seems to me that that almost certainly will happen.
But providing pumped storage for the whole country? Obviously not. Is anyone even suggesting that?
The Mercury. But I haven’t read the article cause it is paywalled. We go to an election soon. And they want a Basslink 2 bad. I don’t know why.
The Rev Dodgson said:
It makes sense for Tasmania to provide more pumped storage capacity to Victoria, and it seems to me that that almost certainly will happen.
But providing pumped storage for the whole country? Obviously not. Is anyone even suggesting that?
Isn’t the eastern two thirds of the country all connected in the “national grid”?
The Rev Dodgson said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Some confusion in the comments about storage and generation.This appears to me to be storage and generation.
?
It clearly says they are talking about pumped storage, with the stored energy coming from solar and wind.
Pumped storage does have some generation of course, from the rainfall within the catchment of the upper storage, but that would typically be only a small part of the total energy output.
The other thing that struck me about the link in the OP was that they seem to be greatly underestimating the amount of storage required. They are talking about of the order of 20 hours storage, but if all or most of the generation is coming from solar and wind there will be times when much more than that will be required.
It seems to me that a reasonable approach would be for all large industrial and commercial facilities to have fossil or bio fueled backup generation plants, and this could top up storage in off-peak times when there was insufficient sun and wind.
Ian said:
The Rev Dodgson said:It makes sense for Tasmania to provide more pumped storage capacity to Victoria, and it seems to me that that almost certainly will happen.
But providing pumped storage for the whole country? Obviously not. Is anyone even suggesting that?
Isn’t the eastern two thirds of the country all connected in the “national grid”?
Except when Tassie falls off.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Pumped hydro storage ‘could make Australia run on renewable energy alone within 20 years’Australia has the capacity to store up to 1,000 times more renewable energy than it could ever conceivably need, according to an analysis by researchers at the Australian National University (ANU).
more…
> ANU engineering professor Andrew Blakers has conducted a study looking into pumped hydro sites and has concluded that there are at least 22,000 suitable locations nationwide
I’d like to see a copy of the report from that study. I know of 100 or so suitable locations that I’ve found myself. The locations I looked for were -
Upper Clarence in NSW, great dividing range from the Gulf of Carpentaria south to the NSW border, and Snowy below Jindabyne. 22,000 seems somewhat excessive, eg. there’s nothing worth using between the Otways and Adelaide.
Ian said:
The Rev Dodgson said:It makes sense for Tasmania to provide more pumped storage capacity to Victoria, and it seems to me that that almost certainly will happen.
But providing pumped storage for the whole country? Obviously not. Is anyone even suggesting that?
Isn’t the eastern two thirds of the country all connected in the “national grid”?
Yes, but there would be huge losses supplying Cairns, or even Brisbane from Tasmania. Makes much more sense to put the storage close to where it will be used.
Why don’t they use excess renewable energy to make hydrogen for storage?
furious said:
Why don’t they use excess renewable energy to make hydrogen for storage?
The losses are very much higher.
sarahs mum said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
sarahs mum said:
First published September 9Most of it won’t happen. Here’s why …
It’s a state election year, and what better than to announce a brave new, multi billion pumped-hydro phantasmagorical bonanza for the state. Fifteen dams, two new Basslinks, Tasmania the national hero. The sort of grand vision that can get governments elected.
Meanwhile, our Prime Minister is being dogged left, right and centre by a hopelessly failing national energy market and is throwing money around like nobody’s business to look like he is on top of it all.
Put those two political ingredients together and then read between the lines in media those ebullient headlines about how plucky little Tasmania is going to save the nation. We won’t do that. We can’t do it. But we do stand to gain a few million in feasibility studies and that is what this is mostly about.
more..
http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php?/weblog/article/a-pumped-hydro-bonanza-for-tasmania-/show_comments
Hmmm…
More politics driven comment.
It makes sense for Tasmania to provide more pumped storage capacity to Victoria, and it seems to me that that almost certainly will happen.
But providing pumped storage for the whole country? Obviously not. Is anyone even suggesting that?
The Mercury. But I haven’t read the article cause it is paywalled. We go to an election soon. And they want a Basslink 2 bad. I don’t know why.
Because it does make TasHydro quite a shedload of money.
OK…
>>The locations I looked for were -
Upper Clarence in NSW
Bugger off.
The Rev Dodgson said:
The other thing that struck me about the link in the OP was that they seem to be greatly underestimating the amount of storage required. They are talking about of the order of 20 hours storage, but if all or most of the generation is coming from solar and wind there will be times when much more than that will be required.It seems to me that a reasonable approach would be for all large industrial and commercial facilities to have fossil or bio fueled backup generation plants, and this could top up storage in off-peak times when there was insufficient sun and wind.
I agree. But on the other hand, pumped water has been underutilized in Australia. There is scope for quite a bit.
The other pumped water storage is underground, but that’s useful only water storage, not power storage.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Ian said:
The Rev Dodgson said:It makes sense for Tasmania to provide more pumped storage capacity to Victoria, and it seems to me that that almost certainly will happen.
But providing pumped storage for the whole country? Obviously not. Is anyone even suggesting that?
Isn’t the eastern two thirds of the country all connected in the “national grid”?
Yes, but there would be huge losses supplying Cairns, or even Brisbane from Tasmania. Makes much more sense to put the storage close to where it will be used.
The idea of pumped hydro, is to store electricity. It costs to pump it. It gives back the stored power, generating a little as it flows back but not enough to send the power elsewhere.
Peak Warming Man said:
>>The locations I looked for were -
Upper Clarence in NSWBugger off.
:)
mollwollfumble said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
The other thing that struck me about the link in the OP was that they seem to be greatly underestimating the amount of storage required. They are talking about of the order of 20 hours storage, but if all or most of the generation is coming from solar and wind there will be times when much more than that will be required.It seems to me that a reasonable approach would be for all large industrial and commercial facilities to have fossil or bio fueled backup generation plants, and this could top up storage in off-peak times when there was insufficient sun and wind.
I agree. But on the other hand, pumped water has been underutilized in Australia. There is scope for quite a bit.
The other pumped water storage is underground, but that’s useful only water storage, not power storage.
We have a lot of big holes in the ground but we have been levelling hills for 200 years.
sibeen said:
sarahs mum said:
The Rev Dodgson said:Hmmm…
More politics driven comment.
It makes sense for Tasmania to provide more pumped storage capacity to Victoria, and it seems to me that that almost certainly will happen.
But providing pumped storage for the whole country? Obviously not. Is anyone even suggesting that?
The Mercury. But I haven’t read the article cause it is paywalled. We go to an election soon. And they want a Basslink 2 bad. I don’t know why.
Because it does make TasHydro quite a shedload of money.
Basslink 2 is mooted to go from Stanley to King island and King Island to somewhere on the western coast of Victoria.
There are those in Tas who want to burn tree waste for electricity. That was part of why people didn’t like the Tamar pulp mill plan. It was going to burn waste and sell electricity into the grid.
sarahs mum said:
sibeen said:
sarahs mum said:The Mercury. But I haven’t read the article cause it is paywalled. We go to an election soon. And they want a Basslink 2 bad. I don’t know why.
Because it does make TasHydro quite a shedload of money.
Basslink 2 is mooted to go from Stanley to King island and King Island to somewhere on the western coast of Victoria.
There are those in Tas who want to burn tree waste for electricity. That was part of why people didn’t like the Tamar pulp mill plan. It was going to burn waste and sell electricity into the grid.
And that makes it renewable you know.
The Rev Dodgson said:
The other thing that struck me about the link in the OP was that they seem to be greatly underestimating the amount of storage required. They are talking about of the order of 20 hours storage, but if all or most of the generation is coming from solar and wind there will be times when much more than that will be required.It seems to me that a reasonable approach would be for all large industrial and commercial facilities to have fossil or bio fueled backup generation plants, and this could top up storage in off-peak times when there was insufficient sun and wind.
It’s really not worth building for 20 hours redundancy.
We’ll end up building wind farms, solar farms, backup battery banks (10 hours redundancy) backup pumped hydro (20 hours redundancy) and backup coal/gas plants for when the wind don’t blow and it’s cloudy for more than a day.
Cost a fortune.
sarahs mum said:
sarahs mum said:
sibeen said:Because it does make TasHydro quite a shedload of money.
Basslink 2 is mooted to go from Stanley to King island and King Island to somewhere on the western coast of Victoria.
There are those in Tas who want to burn tree waste for electricity. That was part of why people didn’t like the Tamar pulp mill plan. It was going to burn waste and sell electricity into the grid.
And that makes it renewable you know.
errargh.
If we replaced all the trees we cut down, it might be renewable.
Ian said:
On 7:30 last night.. Steelmaker Sanjeev Gupta teams with Ross Garnaut to run factories using renewable energyIt’s a bit light on detail but sounds interesting…
Steel baron Sanjeev Gupta and climate change expert Ross Garnaut sound like strange bedfellows.
But they’re teaming up in an effort to disprove conventional wisdom that you can’t run a steel mill with renewable energy.
In the process, they’re also aiming to deliver much cheaper electricity, to improve the competitiveness of Australian steel-making and possibly bring down household power bills as well.
Key points:
- Sanjeev Gupta buys 50.1 per cent stake in Zen Energy
- Gupta proposes to use an array of renewable energy to power the Whyalla Steelworks
- Claims it will reduce the cost of energy
Together, they’re planning to set up an array of renewable energy, that will include solar, pumped hydro and “a bit” of battery to feed the company’s energy hungry steel-mills and provide any excess power into the grid.
climate change expert Ross Garnaut
LOL
Peak Warming Man said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
The other thing that struck me about the link in the OP was that they seem to be greatly underestimating the amount of storage required. They are talking about of the order of 20 hours storage, but if all or most of the generation is coming from solar and wind there will be times when much more than that will be required.It seems to me that a reasonable approach would be for all large industrial and commercial facilities to have fossil or bio fueled backup generation plants, and this could top up storage in off-peak times when there was insufficient sun and wind.
It’s really not worth building for 20 hours redundancy.
We’ll end up building wind farms, solar farms, backup battery banks (10 hours redundancy) backup pumped hydro (20 hours redundancy) and backup coal/gas plants for when the wind don’t blow and it’s cloudy for more than a day.Cost a fortune.
I still like the idea of growing some sort of light or medium grade fuel oil equivalent from algae and burning that directly in a huge diesel engine.
Peak Warming Man said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
The other thing that struck me about the link in the OP was that they seem to be greatly underestimating the amount of storage required. They are talking about of the order of 20 hours storage, but if all or most of the generation is coming from solar and wind there will be times when much more than that will be required.It seems to me that a reasonable approach would be for all large industrial and commercial facilities to have fossil or bio fueled backup generation plants, and this could top up storage in off-peak times when there was insufficient sun and wind.
It’s really not worth building for 20 hours redundancy.
We’ll end up building wind farms, solar farms, backup battery banks (10 hours redundancy) backup pumped hydro (20 hours redundancy) and backup coal/gas plants for when the wind don’t blow and it’s cloudy for more than a day.Cost a fortune.
So what is your solution?
The Rev Dodgson said:
Peak Warming Man said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
The other thing that struck me about the link in the OP was that they seem to be greatly underestimating the amount of storage required. They are talking about of the order of 20 hours storage, but if all or most of the generation is coming from solar and wind there will be times when much more than that will be required.It seems to me that a reasonable approach would be for all large industrial and commercial facilities to have fossil or bio fueled backup generation plants, and this could top up storage in off-peak times when there was insufficient sun and wind.
It’s really not worth building for 20 hours redundancy.
We’ll end up building wind farms, solar farms, backup battery banks (10 hours redundancy) backup pumped hydro (20 hours redundancy) and backup coal/gas plants for when the wind don’t blow and it’s cloudy for more than a day.Cost a fortune.
So what is your solution?
Nationalise the electricity market and grid.
Build gas fired plants at critical points on the grid that can be throttled up or down as needed as base load for industry in particular. The renewables can still be fed in when they are working.
Having done that you can say these are our co2 emissions, it’s the best we can do given current technology because our citizens and industry need affordable and reliable energy.
Peak Warming Man said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Peak Warming Man said:It’s really not worth building for 20 hours redundancy.
We’ll end up building wind farms, solar farms, backup battery banks (10 hours redundancy) backup pumped hydro (20 hours redundancy) and backup coal/gas plants for when the wind don’t blow and it’s cloudy for more than a day.Cost a fortune.
So what is your solution?
Nationalise the electricity market and grid.
Build gas fired plants at critical points on the grid that can be throttled up or down as needed as base load for industry in particular. The renewables can still be fed in when they are working.
Having done that you can say these are our co2 emissions, it’s the best we can do given current technology because our citizens and industry need affordable and reliable energy.
We need to nationalise some gas reserves too, else the gas plants will keep doing what the Pelican one did in SA.
Peak Warming Man said:
Nationalise the electricity market and grid.
Build gas fired plants at critical points on the grid that can be throttled up or down as needed as base load for industry in particular. The renewables can still be fed in when they are working.
Having done that you can say these are our co2 emissions, it’s the best we can do given current technology because our citizens and industry need affordable and reliable energy.
I’m sure we can do better than that.
Nuclear…
Tau.Neutrino said:
Pumped hydro storage ‘could make Australia run on renewable energy alone within 20 years’Australia has the capacity to store up to 1,000 times more renewable energy than it could ever conceivably need, according to an analysis by researchers at the Australian National University (ANU).
more…
ikr
Peak Warming Man said:
>>The locations I looked for were -
Upper Clarence in NSWBugger off.
Why?
Do you love having your house flooded?