Another Armistice Day has come and gone, and with it the usual dialogue of conflict. It’s not as common as it used to be, but there is still some sympathy for the idea of ‘National Service’ as being a cure-all for perceived social ills.

My question is, does it have to be military? I can think of lots of ways of serving one’s nation without learning how to commit violence.

Is there such a thing, around the world, as non-military National Service?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_civilian_service

Rule 303 said:

Another Armistice Day has come and gone, and with it the usual dialogue of conflict. It’s not as common as it used to be, but there is still some sympathy for the idea of ‘National Service’ as being a cure-all for perceived social ills.

My question is, does it have to be military? I can think of lots of ways of serving one’s nation without learning how to commit violence.

Is there such a thing, around the world, as non-military National Service?

Working for the dole?

Rule 303 said:

Another Armistice Day has come and gone, and with it the usual dialogue of conflict. It’s not as common as it used to be, but there is still some sympathy for the idea of ‘National Service’ as being a cure-all for perceived social ills.

My question is, does it have to be military? I can think of lots of ways of serving one’s nation without learning how to commit violence.

Is there such a thing, around the world, as non-military National Service?

How about training work for dole participators in basic firefighting, flood disaster recovery etc

dv said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_civilian_service

Interesting.

Cheer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA

Tau.Neutrino said:

Rule 303 said:

Another Armistice Day has come and gone, and with it the usual dialogue of conflict. It’s not as common as it used to be, but there is still some sympathy for the idea of ‘National Service’ as being a cure-all for perceived social ills.

My question is, does it have to be military? I can think of lots of ways of serving one’s nation without learning how to commit violence.

Is there such a thing, around the world, as non-military National Service?

How about training work for dole participators in basic firefighting, flood disaster recovery etc

You could do it as some sort of voluntary youth scheme. pay proper wages, at the end of it they get some useful training and tickets. But they must be prepared to move around the country and work in some remote places… doing whatever government work that needs an unskilled labour force in remote areas. But I don’t know what exactly they would do.

The problem with a lot of those schemes are that they are targeted at long term unemployed with issues and it is sold as it will sort them out. But there is a reason why they are long term unemployed and those issues don’t go away.

AwesomeO said:

The problem with a lot of those schemes are that they are targeted at long term unemployed with issues and it is sold as it will sort them out. But there is a reason why they are long term unemployed and those issues don’t go away.

And the Services want this like a hole in the head.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Rule 303 said:

Another Armistice Day has come and gone, and with it the usual dialogue of conflict. It’s not as common as it used to be, but there is still some sympathy for the idea of ‘National Service’ as being a cure-all for perceived social ills.

My question is, does it have to be military? I can think of lots of ways of serving one’s nation without learning how to commit violence.

Is there such a thing, around the world, as non-military National Service?

How about training work for dole participators in basic firefighting, flood disaster recovery etc

There might be situations where that could work, but none of the current emergency services are anywhere near ready for the huge organisational changes that would require, AFAIK. I have a feeling it would be more successful to recruit them voluntarily.

We do occasionally use prisoners, but they’re treated as low-skilled grunts who need a high degree of supervision.

The problem with national service is that it’s short-term.

A former soldier of many years experience said that national service was hugely frustrating, because it took most of the two years period of service to get even the best of them trained to anything like a useful and professional-standard level, and just when they were starting to come good, they’d be going through the ‘out’ door.

party_pants said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Rule 303 said:

Another Armistice Day has come and gone, and with it the usual dialogue of conflict. It’s not as common as it used to be, but there is still some sympathy for the idea of ‘National Service’ as being a cure-all for perceived social ills.

My question is, does it have to be military? I can think of lots of ways of serving one’s nation without learning how to commit violence.

Is there such a thing, around the world, as non-military National Service?

How about training work for dole participators in basic firefighting, flood disaster recovery etc

You could do it as some sort of voluntary youth scheme. pay proper wages, at the end of it they get some useful training and tickets. But they must be prepared to move around the country and work in some remote places… doing whatever government work that needs an unskilled labour force in remote areas. But I don’t know what exactly they would do.

I think it’s probably folly to treat people who are long-term unemployed as ready staff. Unskilled people, pressed into labour against their will, often carrying complex personal/medical/psychological problems, who will pay little or no price for sub-par behaviour, are not going to be worth the very significant investment from an organisational POV.

mcgoon said:

The problem with national service is that it’s short-term.

A former soldier of many years experience said that national service was hugely frustrating, because it took most of the two years period of service to get even the best of them trained to anything like a useful and professional-standard level, and just when they were starting to come good, they’d be going through the ‘out’ door.

Well it sounds like they are doing it right, then. You’re not trying to make them into elite soldiers: you just want to give them enough training to make them useful in a genuine crisis such as an invasion.

dv said:

mcgoon said:

The problem with national service is that it’s short-term.

A former soldier of many years experience said that national service was hugely frustrating, because it took most of the two years period of service to get even the best of them trained to anything like a useful and professional-standard level, and just when they were starting to come good, they’d be going through the ‘out’ door.

Well it sounds like they are doing it right, then. You’re not trying to make them into elite soldiers: you just want to give them enough training to make them useful in a genuine crisis such as an invasion.

Well, if you only want some stand-by cannon-fodder, that’s different…

mcgoon said:

dv said:

mcgoon said:

The problem with national service is that it’s short-term.

A former soldier of many years experience said that national service was hugely frustrating, because it took most of the two years period of service to get even the best of them trained to anything like a useful and professional-standard level, and just when they were starting to come good, they’d be going through the ‘out’ door.

Well it sounds like they are doing it right, then. You’re not trying to make them into elite soldiers: you just want to give them enough training to make them useful in a genuine crisis such as an invasion.

Well, if you only want some stand-by cannon-fodder, that’s different…

Well that’s not a very nice way to put it…

dv said:

Well it sounds like they are doing it right, then. You’re not trying to make them into elite soldiers: you just want to give them enough training to make them useful in a genuine crisis such as an invasion.

…just enough to get them killed in much higher numbers than real soldiers.

Rule 303 said:

dv said:

Well it sounds like they are doing it right, then. You’re not trying to make them into elite soldiers: you just want to give them enough training to make them useful in a genuine crisis such as an invasion.

…just enough to get them killed in much higher numbers than real soldiers.

thumbs up emoji

dv said:

mcgoon said:

dv said:

Well it sounds like they are doing it right, then. You’re not trying to make them into elite soldiers: you just want to give them enough training to make them useful in a genuine crisis such as an invasion.

Well, if you only want some stand-by cannon-fodder, that’s different…

Well that’s not a very nice way to put it…

Getting nailed to a tree by shrapnel isn’t terribly decorous, either.

Rule 303 said:

party_pants said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

How about training work for dole participators in basic firefighting, flood disaster recovery etc

You could do it as some sort of voluntary youth scheme. pay proper wages, at the end of it they get some useful training and tickets. But they must be prepared to move around the country and work in some remote places… doing whatever government work that needs an unskilled labour force in remote areas. But I don’t know what exactly they would do.

I think it’s probably folly to treat people who are long-term unemployed as ready staff. Unskilled people, pressed into labour against their will, often carrying complex personal/medical/psychological problems, who will pay little or no price for sub-par behaviour, are not going to be worth the very significant investment from an organisational POV.

I was thinking of school leavers who were not going on to further study or a traineeship/apprenticeship type work. Sort of a guaranteed safety net job if they wanted to apply. Before they become long term unemployed. I don’t think it would be suitable for long term unemployed with mental health or substance abuse problems.

party_pants said:

Rule 303 said:

party_pants said:

You could do it as some sort of voluntary youth scheme. pay proper wages, at the end of it they get some useful training and tickets. But they must be prepared to move around the country and work in some remote places… doing whatever government work that needs an unskilled labour force in remote areas. But I don’t know what exactly they would do.

I think it’s probably folly to treat people who are long-term unemployed as ready staff. Unskilled people, pressed into labour against their will, often carrying complex personal/medical/psychological problems, who will pay little or no price for sub-par behaviour, are not going to be worth the very significant investment from an organisational POV.

I was thinking of school leavers who were not going on to further study or a traineeship/apprenticeship type work. Sort of a guaranteed safety net job if they wanted to apply. Before they become long term unemployed. I don’t think it would be suitable for long term unemployed with mental health or substance abuse problems.

What about using long term unemployed as an ongoing National service?

Basic firefighting
Basic flood recovery
Basic handyman training using a hammer electric drills, electric saws etc

party_pants said:

Rule 303 said:

I think it’s probably folly to treat people who are long-term unemployed as ready staff. Unskilled people, pressed into labour against their will, often carrying complex personal/medical/psychological problems, who will pay little or no price for sub-par behaviour, are not going to be worth the very significant investment from an organisational POV.

I was thinking of school leavers who were not going on to further study or a traineeship/apprenticeship type work. Sort of a guaranteed safety net job if they wanted to apply. Before they become long term unemployed. I don’t think it would be suitable for long term unemployed with mental health or substance abuse problems.

The government could certainly make it more inviting to volunteer. The barriers that exist now are well understood, the problem is that any attempt the government made to address them would create a new niche for corrupt entrepreneurial activity to rape it. The realities of that scenario are well understood, too.

We could use work gangs doing fire maintenance work along the rural highways. You’d need a leader who could use a chainsaw. And some picker upperers to put the wood into trailers/trucks. Then another gang to lop and stack, and deliver to pensioners for free or a small fee. The local councils and VicRoads don’t do this sort of work.

And I suspect our power blackout this morning could well have been a pole fire problem. Gangs hosing down the conductors again would be a good idea.

Rule 303 said:

We do occasionally use prisoners, but they’re treated as low-skilled grunts who need a high degree of supervision.

I think this (extrapolated to other situations) is a fundamental problem with work-for-the-dole and some volunteer organisations. A good friend of mine is a world-reknowned physicist; she spent a significant amount of time overseas, and returned to Australia in early 2015. While she was trying to find employment in Australia, she was required by Centrelink to work as a grunt to receive the dole.

I was a member of the SES for a few years; training sessions seemed to be about training “team leaders” to be team leaders. Ordinary members were treated as grunts — despite the fact that some of us had tertiary- or postgraduate-level qualifications. “Suggestions” (advice) of engineers was ignored by team leaders with no or few qualifications or knowledge, often to the detriment (sometimes complete failure) of the task at hand.

buffy said:

We could use work gangs doing fire maintenance work along the rural highways. You’d need a leader who could use a chainsaw. And some picker upperers to put the wood into trailers/trucks. Then another gang to lop and stack, and deliver to pensioners for free or a small fee. The local councils and VicRoads don’t do this sort of work.

And I suspect our power blackout this morning could well have been a pole fire problem. Gangs hosing down the conductors again would be a good idea.

It’s not cleaning up fallen timber along roadways, but there is a program called Manpower Australia Green Army which sounds like the closest thing to it. I’ve trained maybe a dozen of their groups, and they are mostly middle-class white kids with degrees in Environmental Sciences.

Maybe a similar government-private partnership arrangement could achieve what you’re proposing, but again, the entrepreneurial exploitation potential is enormous.

btm said:

Rule 303 said:

We do occasionally use prisoners, but they’re treated as low-skilled grunts who need a high degree of supervision.

I think this (extrapolated to other situations) is a fundamental problem with work-for-the-dole and some volunteer organisations. A good friend of mine is a world-reknowned physicist; she spent a significant amount of time overseas, and returned to Australia in early 2015. While she was trying to find employment in Australia, she was required by Centrelink to work as a grunt to receive the dole.

I see a couple of real problems there: when I say ‘treated as grunts’ I don’t mean that’s all they’re capable of – I mean some of them will find it humiliating. And you can’t put untrained people in harm’s way. Under any circumstances.

btm said:

I was a member of the SES for a few years; training sessions seemed to be about training “team leaders” to be team leaders. Ordinary members were treated as grunts — despite the fact that some of us had tertiary- or postgraduate-level qualifications. “Suggestions” (advice) of engineers was ignored by team leaders with no or few qualifications or knowledge, often to the detriment (sometimes complete failure) of the task at hand.

I’m sorry to hear that, mate, but it does support my comments earlier about the organisations involved being a long, long way from ready for such plans and schemes – We can’t even conduct our current work properly.

whats the point?

the last war australia won was malaya and its first war that defined it was a failure – seems to me that if you want success, keeping people away from the military is a cheaper option. the military isn’t a productive thing either, just lots of blokes or now women / transgender / whatever tickles your fancy riding around in trucks depleting the public purse – thats when they arent spending money on the doomed F35, sea sprite, collins class submarines, failed missiles and god knows what now that they have got better at hiding their failures.

ahhhh but what if theres a war?

australia will only be fighting a defensive war and will hang on until ANZUS saves us, we don’t need the troops or anyone trained to do so because thats what we pay tribute to america for – thats how it works. the only viable aggressor would be china but why would they launch a war when they can pay off our politicans and achieve the same thing ?(the art of war – the fifth column). china doesn’t fight wars like that unless possible they use vast armies of spies and bribery to achieve results (its cheaper). meanwhile they keep building islands and no one can resist them.

how about this for an idea instead – we learn how to manufacture things again and create real employment and start thinking how to actually sell things and invest in things that will make this country better than someone else’s bare arsed savage country?

wookiemeister said:

whats the point?

To reassure conservative political commentators that their opinions remain current.

Rule 303 said:

wookiemeister said:

whats the point?

To reassure conservative political commentators that their opinions remain current.

you are knocking your head against a brick wall here , just let them sleep, its only going to make people angry.

>My question is, does it have to be military? I can think of lots of ways of serving one’s nation without learning how to commit violence.

(prospect of owning) some land and neighborliness perhaps.

it’s radical idea.

With hemp beer, hemp chocolate and hemp oil debuting over the weekend, industry is rushing to bring even more products to consumers as the product is now legal to be sold as food in Australia.

transition said:

>My question is, does it have to be military? I can think of lots of ways of serving one’s nation without learning how to commit violence.

(prospect of owning) some land and neighborliness perhaps.

it’s radical idea.

Military national service is more about fitness, discipline, comradeship & self reliance.

Tamb said:

transition said:

>My question is, does it have to be military? I can think of lots of ways of serving one’s nation without learning how to commit violence.

(prospect of owning) some land and neighborliness perhaps.

it’s radical idea.

Military national service is more about fitness, discipline, comradeship & self reliance.

lol

I wish we could get the army to do something useful like digging ditches and building bridges.

mollwollfumble said:

I wish we could get the army to do something useful like digging ditches and building bridges.

You can as long as you are willing to pay the Federal Government full cost recovery which is very expensive which is why the state governments don’t do it. In the case of an emergency an approved DACC (Derfence Aid to the Civil Community) request will mean the Federals pay the bill.

There are various tiers at a local level at commandant can authorise expenditure but this is limited,at other levels state and Federal can share, in a declared state of emergency if approved the Federals will pay.