Of course the Q of if we can or will ever be able to communicate or interact is a separate issue….. but is it true that in an infinite Universe all things that are allowed by the laws of Physics will happen ?
Not only happen , but happen an infinite number of times?
If that is true , and the Universe is infinite does it not follow that life has happened an infinite number of times ?
Brett
Yes.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Yes.
Hey Rev
I guess its vaguely reassuring that in your opinion and under those circumstances ,somewhere I have a doppelganger that wins Lotto every day and sleeps with Supermodels.
Brett
Thomo said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Yes.
Hey Rev
I guess its vaguely reassuring that in your opinion and under those circumstances ,somewhere I have a doppelganger that wins Lotto every day and sleeps with Supermodels.Brett
well, maybe. If there is an infinitesimal chance of something happening, maybe the creation of You, then there may only be one of You in an infinite Universe.
Thomo said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Yes.
Hey Rev
I guess its vaguely reassuring that in your opinion and under those circumstances ,somewhere I have a doppelganger that wins Lotto every day and sleeps with Supermodels.Brett
yep, just as under those circumstances ,somewhere I have a doppelganger that sleeps in a cardboard box on the streets and eats dog food…
JudgeMental said:
Thomo said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Yes.
Hey Rev
I guess its vaguely reassuring that in your opinion and under those circumstances ,somewhere I have a doppelganger that wins Lotto every day and sleeps with Supermodels.Brett
well, maybe. If there is an infinitesimal chance of something happening, maybe the creation of You, then there may only be one of You in an infinite Universe.
Maybe I’m showing my lack of understanding of infinite
But if the chance is greater than zero does it not follow that it happens an infinite number of times ?
Aside from the Q that if there is another identical to me , there is still only one me
‘Labor senator Sam Dastyari to address media at 10.30am (AEDT)’ – ABC News
My prediction — Shanghai Sam announces that he’s handing in his ALP ticket, but that he’ll be staying aboard the gravy train, thanks.
Oops.
Wrong Fred.
Solly.
infinity’s a bit of a wank, an abstract indulgence, a theoretical indulgence, good for some math though.
you can say over a really long time lots of stuff can happen, dress it up with a neat little word, call it infinity, you know it’s a bit like a baby’s little yellow squeeze ducky.
now, the qualities of the quantity _1_(one), there’s something truly interesting. It seems mundane, hardly worthy of exaltation, doesn’t parade as special, doesn’t substitute for unknowns.
but there it is, they’re everywhere.
transition said:
infinity’s a bit of a wank, an abstract indulgence, a theoretical indulgence, good for some math though.you can say over a really long time lots of stuff can happen, dress it up with a neat little word, call it infinity, you know it’s a bit like a baby’s little yellow squeeze ducky.
I can’t see that infinity is any more “abstract” than a finite quantity that’s too large to be physically measured.
Bubblecar said:
transition said:
infinity’s a bit of a wank, an abstract indulgence, a theoretical indulgence, good for some math though.you can say over a really long time lots of stuff can happen, dress it up with a neat little word, call it infinity, you know it’s a bit like a baby’s little yellow squeeze ducky.
I can’t see that infinity is any more “abstract” than a finite quantity that’s too large to be physically measured.
maybe, talk about that later.
infinity i’d guess is more a quality than quantity, expect it has to be. Like zero is probably more a quality than quantity.
dunno, more i’m having a poke at infinity as a play thing. I mean if there are any real infinities it’s going to have some serious implications, of displacement for one.
so I guess it comes back to substituting for time and space.
I can see it being handy in some math.
In regard to the OP, the answer is: No, in an infinite universe, not everything allowed by the laws of physics will happen.
For example, under the laws of physics, it’s possible that all the subatomic particles of which I am composed will disappear from here in the next 5 seconds, and reappear somewhere else in the universe.
Five seconds later: Nup, didn’t happen :)
Does it follow in an infinite universe that you’d get exactly the same things existing numerous times, couldn’t the universe be infinite but every single part is slightly different. I wonder what the odds are of a solar system like ours existing elsewhere in the universe and its exactly the same right down to the smallest detail. I suppose the odds stacked against infinite could allow this
Cymek said:
Does it follow in an infinite universe that you’d get exactly the same things existing numerous times, couldn’t the universe be infinite but every single part is slightly different. I wonder what the odds are of a solar system like ours existing elsewhere in the universe and its exactly the same right down to the smallest detail. I suppose the odds stacked against infinite could allow this
well, infinity isn’t just a big number. This is where my comment about infinitesimals chances comes in.
>couldn’t the universe be infinite but every single part is slightly different.
things are different right off the bat
something existing in some location prohibits something else simultaneously existing in the same place (probably in-large-part the essence of structure in the universe)
transition said:
something existing in some location prohibits something else simultaneously existing in the same place (probably in-large-part the essence of structure in the universe)
Not necessarily. If a grand piano being hoisted into a building gets dropped on my head, we will both still exist, and in the same place. Granted, both our physical structures will have been radically altered.
captain_spalding said:
transition said:something existing in some location prohibits something else simultaneously existing in the same place (probably in-large-part the essence of structure in the universe)
Not necessarily. If a grand piano being hoisted into a building gets dropped on my head, we will both still exist, and in the same place. Granted, both our physical structures will have been radically altered.
:-) that’s the idea
Are you saying that:
∞ x 1/∞ = 1
Cymek said:
Does it follow in an infinite universe that you’d get exactly the same things existing numerous times, couldn’t the universe be infinite but every single part is slightly different. I wonder what the odds are of a solar system like ours existing elsewhere in the universe and its exactly the same right down to the smallest detail. I suppose the odds stacked against infinite could allow this
Apparently it depends on whether spacetime is quantized, in which case the number of different possible histories for any given region is finite and will be repeated an infinite number of times in an infinite universe.
The Universe, for any practical purpose relevant to humanity, is finite, bound by a cosmological event horizon.
dv said:
The Universe, for any practical purpose relevant to humanity, is finite, bound by a cosmological event horizon.
That and the speed of light and our life span (individual and as a species)
dv said:
The Universe, for any practical purpose relevant to humanity, is finite, bound by a cosmological event horizon.
Yeah but cosmologists are pretty sure it’s a lot bigger than that.
Before the universe there was void, an infinite void.
Peak Warming Man said:
Before the universe there was void, an infinite void.
well, that would indicate that there was a pre-existing space, and hence a Universe.
JudgeMental said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Before the universe there was void, an infinite void.
well, that would indicate that there was a pre-existing space, and hence a Universe.
No it wasn’t space it was a void, nothingness emptiness devoid of anything into which the cosmos and space is expanding into.
It’s hard for laymen not grounded in the Biblical Sciences to get their head around though.
Peak Warming Man said:
JudgeMental said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Before the universe there was void, an infinite void.
well, that would indicate that there was a pre-existing space, and hence a Universe.
No it wasn’t space it was a void, nothingness emptiness devoid of anything into which the cosmos and space is expanding into.
It’s hard for laymen not grounded in the Biblical Sciences to get their head around though.
pffft the sciencey science explanation is hard enough.
Peak Warming Man said:
JudgeMental said:
Peak Warming Man said:
Before the universe there was void, an infinite void.
well, that would indicate that there was a pre-existing space, and hence a Universe.
No it wasn’t space it was a void, nothingness emptiness devoid of anything into which the cosmos and space is expanding into.
It’s hard for laymen not grounded in the Biblical Sciences to get their head around though.
And don’t get hung up on the esoteric difference between the Void and the Firmament.
Bubblecar said:
transition said:
infinity’s a bit of a wank, an abstract indulgence, a theoretical indulgence, good for some math though.you can say over a really long time lots of stuff can happen, dress it up with a neat little word, call it infinity, you know it’s a bit like a baby’s little yellow squeeze ducky.
I can’t see that infinity is any more “abstract” than a finite quantity that’s too large to be physically measured.
I disagree. Large finite quantities, that are too large to measure, are very different from infinite quantities, that can’t be measured even in principle.
dv said:
The Universe, for any practical purpose relevant to humanity, is finite, bound by a cosmological event horizon.
But we’re not talking about practical purposes.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
transition said:
infinity’s a bit of a wank, an abstract indulgence, a theoretical indulgence, good for some math though.you can say over a really long time lots of stuff can happen, dress it up with a neat little word, call it infinity, you know it’s a bit like a baby’s little yellow squeeze ducky.
I can’t see that infinity is any more “abstract” than a finite quantity that’s too large to be physically measured.
I disagree. Large finite quantities, that are too large to measure, are very different from infinite quantities, that can’t be measured even in principle.
yes, infinite is a lot bigger. you wouldn’t believe how big. and not just on the inside either.
The universe could also be almost infinite, say a couple of units short.
Bubblecar said:
In regard to the OP, the answer is: No, in an infinite universe, not everything allowed by the laws of physics will happen.For example, under the laws of physics, it’s possible that all the subatomic particles of which I am composed will disappear from here in the next 5 seconds, and reappear somewhere else in the universe.
Five seconds later: Nup, didn’t happen :)
But you are cheating there.
Obviously not everything will happen within some defined space and time, but given infinite space and time, if it is indeed possible for bubblecar sized objects to instantaneously translate somewhere else, then it will happen repeatedly.
Peak Warming Man said:
The universe could also be almost infinite, say a couple of units short.
they are the sort of units the universe is better off without. in fact we should cull more units from the universe.
Peak Warming Man said:
The universe could also be almost infinite, say a couple of units short.
Right on brother
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
In regard to the OP, the answer is: No, in an infinite universe, not everything allowed by the laws of physics will happen.For example, under the laws of physics, it’s possible that all the subatomic particles of which I am composed will disappear from here in the next 5 seconds, and reappear somewhere else in the universe.
Five seconds later: Nup, didn’t happen :)
But you are cheating there.
Obviously not everything will happen within some defined space and time, but given infinite space and time, if it is indeed possible for bubblecar sized objects to instantaneously translate somewhere else, then it will happen repeatedly.
do we have infinite time in the Universe though?
JudgeMental said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
In regard to the OP, the answer is: No, in an infinite universe, not everything allowed by the laws of physics will happen.For example, under the laws of physics, it’s possible that all the subatomic particles of which I am composed will disappear from here in the next 5 seconds, and reappear somewhere else in the universe.
Five seconds later: Nup, didn’t happen :)
But you are cheating there.
Obviously not everything will happen within some defined space and time, but given infinite space and time, if it is indeed possible for bubblecar sized objects to instantaneously translate somewhere else, then it will happen repeatedly.
do we have infinite time in the Universe though?
We don’t know (for space or time).
But I should have said infinite space and/or time anyway.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
transition said:
infinity’s a bit of a wank, an abstract indulgence, a theoretical indulgence, good for some math though.you can say over a really long time lots of stuff can happen, dress it up with a neat little word, call it infinity, you know it’s a bit like a baby’s little yellow squeeze ducky.
I can’t see that infinity is any more “abstract” than a finite quantity that’s too large to be physically measured.
I disagree. Large finite quantities, that are too large to measure, are very different from infinite quantities, that can’t be measured even in principle.
What I meant was, if the universe is too large to measure, we can’t tell if it’s finite even if it’s finite :)
So there’s comes a point where not being able to be measured in practice essentially means it also can’t be measured in principle, whether it’s finite or infinite.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
In regard to the OP, the answer is: No, in an infinite universe, not everything allowed by the laws of physics will happen.For example, under the laws of physics, it’s possible that all the subatomic particles of which I am composed will disappear from here in the next 5 seconds, and reappear somewhere else in the universe.
Five seconds later: Nup, didn’t happen :)
But you are cheating there.
Obviously not everything will happen within some defined space and time, but given infinite space and time, if it is indeed possible for bubblecar sized objects to instantaneously translate somewhere else, then it will happen repeatedly.
So you’re talking about general classes of possibility, rather than specific possibilities.
Bubblecar said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:I can’t see that infinity is any more “abstract” than a finite quantity that’s too large to be physically measured.
I disagree. Large finite quantities, that are too large to measure, are very different from infinite quantities, that can’t be measured even in principle.
What I meant was, if the universe is too large to measure, we can’t tell if it’s finite even if it’s finite :)
So there’s comes a point where not being able to be measured in practice essentially means it also can’t be measured in principle, whether it’s finite or infinite.
Depends how you define “principle” and “practice”.
But I agree that whether the universe is finite or infinite does not make any difference to us in practice, for any practical definition of practice.
Bubblecar said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
In regard to the OP, the answer is: No, in an infinite universe, not everything allowed by the laws of physics will happen.For example, under the laws of physics, it’s possible that all the subatomic particles of which I am composed will disappear from here in the next 5 seconds, and reappear somewhere else in the universe.
Five seconds later: Nup, didn’t happen :)
But you are cheating there.
Obviously not everything will happen within some defined space and time, but given infinite space and time, if it is indeed possible for bubblecar sized objects to instantaneously translate somewhere else, then it will happen repeatedly.
So you’re talking about general classes of possibility, rather than specific possibilities.
No, I’m talking about any possible event, just not limited to a specific place at a specific time.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
The Rev Dodgson said:But you are cheating there.
Obviously not everything will happen within some defined space and time, but given infinite space and time, if it is indeed possible for bubblecar sized objects to instantaneously translate somewhere else, then it will happen repeatedly.
So you’re talking about general classes of possibility, rather than specific possibilities.
No, I’m talking about any possible event, just not limited to a specific place at a specific time.
Isn’t it highly unlikely complex objects can spontaneously appear and disappear at all
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
The Rev Dodgson said:But you are cheating there.
Obviously not everything will happen within some defined space and time, but given infinite space and time, if it is indeed possible for bubblecar sized objects to instantaneously translate somewhere else, then it will happen repeatedly.
So you’re talking about general classes of possibility, rather than specific possibilities.
No, I’m talking about any possible event, just not limited to a specific place at a specific time.
Hmm, so you mean: “Any possible event, including those limited to a specific place at a specific time” – in which case my answer was correct…
…or “Not any possible event, only those not specified by a specific place at a specific time”.
Cymek said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:So you’re talking about general classes of possibility, rather than specific possibilities.
No, I’m talking about any possible event, just not limited to a specific place at a specific time.
Isn’t it highly unlikely complex objects can spontaneously appear and disappear at all
Extremely unlikely indeed, but apparently possible (probability greater than zero) according to quantum mechanics.
I’m not sure we need an infinite amount of time if the size is infinite .
And by infinite I mean infinite , not too large to measure ,
Quite easy if you’re a wizard, or so I’m led to believe.
If I could choose a superpower, it would be telekinesis.
∞ x 1/∞ = 1
It has probably already happened, but you didn’t notice it. Perhaps you were asleep at the time…
I don’t think we are equipped to understand these things.
We need a new paradigm but we don’t have the tools, our thought processes are wired in and are linear and maybe that’s because time is linear.
I don’t think there will ever be an end game because as we open up one door with the key of knowledge it will present another locked door, our quest could be the thing that is infinite.
Peak Warming Man said:
I don’t think we are equipped to understand these things.
We need a new paradigm but we don’t have the tools, our thought processes are wired in and are linear and maybe that’s because time is linear.
I don’t think there will ever be an end game because as we open up one door with the key of knowledge it will present another locked door, our quest could be the thing that is infinite.
Quite likely I think the journey is important not the end goal
Bubblecar said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:So you’re talking about general classes of possibility, rather than specific possibilities.
No, I’m talking about any possible event, just not limited to a specific place at a specific time.
Hmm, so you mean: “Any possible event, including those limited to a specific place at a specific time” – in which case my answer was correct…
…or “Not any possible event, only those not specified by a specific place at a specific time”.
I just mean that the specification of the “event” does not include the place and time.
Thomo said:
I’m not sure we need an infinite amount of time if the size is infinite .
And by infinite I mean infinite , not too large to measure ,
… and we don’t need infinite space if time is infinite.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Thomo said:
I’m not sure we need an infinite amount of time if the size is infinite .
And by infinite I mean infinite , not too large to measure ,
… and we don’t need infinite space if time is infinite.
If the universe was finite I wonder what would be the minimum size it could be and we’d still exist.
Cymek said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Thomo said:
I’m not sure we need an infinite amount of time if the size is infinite .
And by infinite I mean infinite , not too large to measure ,
… and we don’t need infinite space if time is infinite.
If the universe was finite I wonder what would be the minimum size it could be and we’d still exist.
I may be wrong, but I’d guess that a single galaxy would be plenty to make life a possibility.
My thesis was on an almost infinite universe was extremely well received good chance of a Nobel prize
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:
The Rev Dodgson said:… and we don’t need infinite space if time is infinite.
If the universe was finite I wonder what would be the minimum size it could be and we’d still exist.
I may be wrong, but I’d guess that a single galaxy would be plenty to make life a possibility.
once upon a time it was.
;-)
JudgeMental said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:If the universe was finite I wonder what would be the minimum size it could be and we’d still exist.
I may be wrong, but I’d guess that a single galaxy would be plenty to make life a possibility.
once upon a time it was.
;-)
Maybe.
It may be that the early stages of such a small universe would change things to such an extent that life was no longer possible.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:
The Rev Dodgson said:… and we don’t need infinite space if time is infinite.
If the universe was finite I wonder what would be the minimum size it could be and we’d still exist.
I may be wrong, but I’d guess that a single galaxy would be plenty to make life a possibility.
That’s what I was thinking, you’d still get the heavy elements needed to form planets, etc
Just thinking….
Is it possible that the fact that we are here is proof the the Universe is not infinite .
If a Universe is infinite , and if in a infinite Universe all things that are allowed by physics happen .
If the Laws of Physics allow a totally analialating event .
Then we wouldn’t be here .
Brett
Isn’t that Murphy’s Law?
furious said:
- If the Laws of Physics allow a totally analialating event .
Then we wouldn’t be here .Isn’t that Murphy’s Law?
I think so
But the answer I suspect is either the Universe is not infinite or that totally analialating events are not allowed by physics
The Rev Dodgson said:
JudgeMental said:
The Rev Dodgson said:I may be wrong, but I’d guess that a single galaxy would be plenty to make life a possibility.
once upon a time it was.
;-)
Maybe.
It may be that the early stages of such a small universe would change things to such an extent that life was no longer possible.
my comment was alluding to the Island Universe view early on in cosmology when other galaxies weren’t thought of.
>and if in a infinite Universe all things that are allowed by physics happen .
it’s the constraints of physics that give you the thermodynamics, that gives you time (arrow of time). Physics constrains the possibilities.
perhaps more interesting…
is human consciousness a new force that allows some tricks, some new physics. Of possibility space, but did it originate in human minds, through evolution, or did it originate of, was it inherited from the environment?
dunno.
think’ll be dead before that one’s worked out.
Thomo said:
Of course the Q of if we can or will ever be able to communicate or interact is a separate issue….. but is it true that in an infinite Universe all things that are allowed by the laws of Physics will happen ?
Not only happen , but happen an infinite number of times?If that is true , and the Universe is infinite does it not follow that life has happened an infinite number of times ?
Brett
> is it true that in an infinite Universe all things that are allowed by the laws of Physics will happen ? Not only happen , but happen an infinite number of times?
No. It’s false. All it needs is for one thing to happen an infinite number of times, or an infinite number of things to happen once.
Or to put it mathematically, 1 * infinity = infinity * 1 is still = infinity.
If, as we all suspect, the laws of physics vary from place to place, then everything happens just once.
mollwollfumble said:
No. It’s false. All it needs is for one thing to happen an infinite number of times, or an infinite number of things to happen once.
But “things” are by definition of finite extent in time and space, and there is a finite resolution below which differences cannot be perceived.
So there are a finite number of things, so there must be repetition if space and/or time are infinite.
mollwollfumble said:
Thomo said:
Of course the Q of if we can or will ever be able to communicate or interact is a separate issue….. but is it true that in an infinite Universe all things that are allowed by the laws of Physics will happen ?
Not only happen , but happen an infinite number of times?If that is true , and the Universe is infinite does it not follow that life has happened an infinite number of times ?
Brett
> is it true that in an infinite Universe all things that are allowed by the laws of Physics will happen ? Not only happen , but happen an infinite number of times?
No. It’s false. All it needs is for one thing to happen an infinite number of times, or an infinite number of things to happen once.
Or to put it mathematically, 1 * infinity = infinity * 1 is still = infinity.
If, as we all suspect, the laws of physics vary from place to place, then everything happens just once.
OK I get that ( I think )
but infinity * infinity = infinity also
so cant an infinite number of things happen an infinite number of times ?.
If the laws of Physics are constant .
Brett