Beyond Electricity.
Thoughts?
What will replace the current electricity system we have?
Some kind of pure superconducting plasma?
Something less ambitious?
Meet the microgrid, the technology poised to transform electricity
This is the path to a cleaner, more reliable, more resilient energy grid.
more..
nfi, sorry.
Plasmas take truckloads of energy to form and maintain, so there’d be a lot of waste that way.
Can’t see anything changing too drastically, we are already making the transition to renewables and decentralised generation and storage, micro grids and the like.
Perhaps more battery technology, power tools are starting to come with bigger batteries and more power that will start to replace small petrols motors, but once again that move is already well underway.
I can’t see an alternative energy form to electricity.
party_pants said:
Agree.
Can’t see anything changing too drastically, we are already making the transition to renewables and decentralised generation and storage, micro grids and the like.Perhaps more battery technology, power tools are starting to come with bigger batteries and more power that will start to replace small petrols motors, but once again that move is already well underway.
I can’t see an alternative energy form to electricity.
In fact, the grid we are on is just an interconnected series of microgrids and was built that way from the start.
My grandfather came to Australia to set up (diesel) generation systems for individual towns and cities. These systems are now part of the grid. All of the small generation plants he set up are now redundant and have been replaced by more efficient large coal-fired plants. We are now finding other ways to manage interconnected microgrids. Especially with modern switching systems.
Sibeen is the forum expert on this, and you (tau.neutrino) should consult with him about this stuff.
Michael V said:
party_pants said:Agree.
Can’t see anything changing too drastically, we are already making the transition to renewables and decentralised generation and storage, micro grids and the like.Perhaps more battery technology, power tools are starting to come with bigger batteries and more power that will start to replace small petrols motors, but once again that move is already well underway.
I can’t see an alternative energy form to electricity.
In fact, the grid we are on is just an interconnected series of microgrids and was built that way from the start.
My grandfather came to Australia to set up (diesel) generation systems for individual towns and cities. These systems are now part of the grid. All of the small generation plants he set up are now redundant and have been replaced by more efficient large coal-fired plants. We are now finding other ways to manage interconnected microgrids. Especially with modern switching systems.
Sibeen is the forum expert on this, and you (tau.neutrino) should consult with him about this stuff.
Its just a question that came to mind.
I’m also wondering what sort of electricity/energy aliens might use.
Tau.Neutrino said:
That’s pretty much out there.
Michael V said:
party_pants said:Agree.
Can’t see anything changing too drastically, we are already making the transition to renewables and decentralised generation and storage, micro grids and the like.Perhaps more battery technology, power tools are starting to come with bigger batteries and more power that will start to replace small petrols motors, but once again that move is already well underway.
I can’t see an alternative energy form to electricity.
In fact, the grid we are on is just an interconnected series of microgrids and was built that way from the start.
My grandfather came to Australia to set up (diesel) generation systems for individual towns and cities. These systems are now part of the grid. All of the small generation plants he set up are now redundant and have been replaced by more efficient large coal-fired plants. We are now finding other ways to manage interconnected microgrids. Especially with modern switching systems.
Sibeen is the forum expert on this, and you (tau.neutrino) should consult with him about this stuff.
Its just a question that came to mind.
I’m also wondering what sort of electricity/energy aliens might use.
And I’m not sure Sibeen will be able to answer that without making stuff up, but I’d be interested to hear his musings.
Michael V said:
And I’m not sure Sibeen will be able to answer that without making stuff up, but I’d be interested to hear his musings.
so will I!
quite a discovery electricity, well, using it as humans do, not forgetting it’s been around right through the evolution of life, and before, right back at the beginning of time. I bet the singularity had some too, though can’t be sure, I wasn’t there.
purifying metals helped with it all, to make conductors and stuff, somewhere, sometime, someone put to use alternating current, transformers, made use of different voltages for different distances and size conductors. A substantial achievement.
right up there with reticulated water, the piston engine, and piping sewage away.
ubiquitous comes to mind, of electricity.
Telepathy’s always been electric :-).
doubtful there will be a beyond electricity.
Morning all.
:)
My instrument tells me it’s 26.7& deg;C, 84% RH. My eyes tell me it’s 2/8 cloud (mostly high and all thin), and calm. BoM tells me to expect 30°C tops and that there’s a good chance of rain for most of the day.
I hope to start moving the dismantled garden sheds back from across the road today, in preparation for re-erection later this month. And Woodie’ll be going home today, after his summer holiday. Pity it wasn’t so nice down the beach, so we didn’t go for a surf.
:(
Whoops. Sorry.
Waves to Michael V and Woodie.
A big thank you to MV for talking about orange sauce yesterday, I explored the recipe at the Omnivore’s Cookbook and am going to give their crispy chicken and orange sauce a try tonight, it sounds extra good! FSM says his version is a bite of KFC followed by a swig of Fanta. Shakes head
D’oh. Wrong place too!
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.
The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
i’m sensing a commitment to the growing we, and wondering of the distractions
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
i’m sensing a commitment to the growing we, and wondering of the distractions
I’m afraid I’m not understanding your banter old chap.
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
i’m sensing a commitment to the growing we, and wondering of the distractions
that’s probably because you don’t understand english conventions.
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
i’m sensing a commitment to the growing we, and wondering of the distractions
I’m afraid I’m not understanding your banter old chap.
it is your use of “we”, transition has a bugbear about this word for some reason.
ChrispenEvan said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:i’m sensing a commitment to the growing we, and wondering of the distractions
I’m afraid I’m not understanding your banter old chap.
it is your use of “we”, transition has a bugbear about this word for some reason.
no, I was thinking of the conversations that substitute for, or more displace conversations about overpopulation (unsustainable consumption).
the obliviation.
the commitment to the growing we seems part of the force.
ChrispenEvan said:
He’s not a socialist. He’s a farmer.
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:i’m sensing a commitment to the growing we, and wondering of the distractions
I’m afraid I’m not understanding your banter old chap.
it is your use of “we”, transition has a bugbear about this word for some reason.
transition said:
ChrispenEvan said:
The Rev Dodgson said:I’m afraid I’m not understanding your banter old chap.
it is your use of “we”, transition has a bugbear about this word for some reason.
no, I was thinking of the conversations that substitute for, or more displace conversations about overpopulation (unsustainable consumption).
the obliviation.
the commitment to the growing we seems part of the force.
well “we” also might have to do something about overpopulation but that is another matter. this topic is about electricity supply etc.
transition said:
ChrispenEvan said:
The Rev Dodgson said:I’m afraid I’m not understanding your banter old chap.
it is your use of “we”, transition has a bugbear about this word for some reason.
no, I was thinking of the conversations that substitute for, or more displace conversations about overpopulation (unsustainable consumption).
the obliviation.
the commitment to the growing we seems part of the force.
We might need more and better-provided electricity even without any population growth.
For a start there’ll be all those electric car batteries to keep recharging, before long.
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
Is it possible to long term store electricity.
Also I do wonder how much power is used to light up cities buildings at night for what appears no practical purpose
transition said:
ChrispenEvan said:
The Rev Dodgson said:I’m afraid I’m not understanding your banter old chap.
it is your use of “we”, transition has a bugbear about this word for some reason.
no, I was thinking of the conversations that substitute for, or more displace conversations about overpopulation (unsustainable consumption).
the obliviation.
the commitment to the growing we seems part of the force.
OK, but what I said neither stated nor implied any commitment to the growing we.
We (that is the great majority of the people living in Australia) will benefit from continuing provision of a broad-based electricity grid whether the population is declining, static or growing.
Even those who live in places where it makes sense not to be connected to the grid will continue to benefit from it.
ChrispenEvan said:
transition said:
ChrispenEvan said:it is your use of “we”, transition has a bugbear about this word for some reason.
no, I was thinking of the conversations that substitute for, or more displace conversations about overpopulation (unsustainable consumption).
the obliviation.
the commitment to the growing we seems part of the force.
well “we” also might have to do something about overpopulation but that is another matter. this topic is about electricity supply etc.
i’d disagree, it’s not another matter, it’s one of the conversations that is had instead of the conversation about overpopulation, and growth driven by consumption.
Cymek said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
Is it possible to long term store electricity.
Yes. Pumped storage for instance is a good way to do it (in effect).
Cymek said:
Also I do wonder how much power is used to light up cities buildings at night for what appears no practical purpose
We also need to make energy use more efficient, but that applies whether we continue with a state/national grid or try and switch to micro grids.
>OK, but what I said neither stated nor implied any commitment to the growing we.
dunno, I got larger social organism out of we, trending toward delusions of super organism.
it hasn’t passed me by that if some other conscious species evolved here on earth (no hope), or landed on the planet from elsewhere, and wanted to use the resources like the we do, pretensions and all, that humans would war over it.
:-)
transition said:
>OK, but what I said neither stated nor implied any commitment to the growing we.dunno, I got larger social organism out of we, trending toward delusions of super organism.
it hasn’t passed me by that if some other conscious species evolved here on earth (no hope), or landed on the planet from elsewhere, and wanted to use the resources like the we do, pretensions and all, that humans would war over it.
:-)
I imagine we have enough resources to give everyone on the planet a decent lifestyle and minimise environmental damage if as a species we gave a damn and the powers that be implemented such a program
ChrispenEvan said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:i’m sensing a commitment to the growing we, and wondering of the distractions
I’m afraid I’m not understanding your banter old chap.
it is your use of “we”, transition has a bugbear about this word for some reason.
“We” is the plural of “I”, from that point on I’m lost.
Instead of batteries for starting the engine and running the battery when the engine is off why don’t car petrol engines use a capacitator? No more four yearly or so battery changes.
Tau.Neutrino said:
“We” is the plural of “I”, from that point on I’m lost.
Englishman to in France to a local: Can you help me. I am new around here.
Frenchman: No, ‘we’ is ‘nous’ around here.
AwesomeO said:
Instead of batteries for starting the engine and running the battery when the engine is off why don’t car petrol engines use a capacitator? No more four yearly or so battery changes.
Oops, running the radio I meant.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
Is it possible to long term store electricity.
Yes. Pumped storage for instance is a good way to do it (in effect).
Cymek said:
Also I do wonder how much power is used to light up cities buildings at night for what appears no practical purposeWe also need to make energy use more efficient, but that applies whether we continue with a state/national grid or try and switch to micro grids.
What if an an extremely more efficient energy system lies in another future technology?
Wouldn’t “you” want to go looking for it or leave it ?
Swap if with we for the plural.
AwesomeO said:
Instead of batteries for starting the engine and running the battery when the engine is off why don’t car petrol engines use a capacitator? No more four yearly or so battery changes.
Assuming you mean capacitor rather than capacitator, you’d need one much larger than a battery to store enough energy to start the engine. They’re also much more leaky than a battery.
AwesomeO said:
I guess because batteries are better at the storage game. If not, why did Mr Musk and the SA government install batteries for the grid back-up in South Australia?
Instead of batteries for starting the engine and running the battery when the engine is off why don’t car petrol engines use a capacitator? No more four yearly or so battery changes.
Cymek said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
Is it possible to long term store electricity.
Also I do wonder how much power is used to light up cities buildings at night for what appears no practical purpose
Light pollution effects astronomy
Light pollution also effects birds and other wildlife
So directing light to where its needed would be more efficient than sending into space etc
Tau.Neutrino said:
ChrispenEvan said:
The Rev Dodgson said:I’m afraid I’m not understanding your banter old chap.
it is your use of “we”, transition has a bugbear about this word for some reason.
“We” is the plural of “I”, from that point on I’m lost.
:) that’s funny
I guess you’re talking about the we that outlives you, that probably even anticipated you before you were born.
AwesomeO said:
AwesomeO said:
Instead of batteries for starting the engine and running the battery when the engine is off why don’t car petrol engines use a capacitator? No more four yearly or so battery changes.
Oops, running the radio I meant.
Perhaps you could use a magneto, but you’d have to go back to hand-cranking the engine. And i don’t think that’d be very easy, with modern high-compression engines.
If you used a capacitor, you’d have big leakage probs, as someone said, and how many tries at starting would it give you? Maybe not ideal on a cold morning.
AwesomeO said:
AwesomeO said:
Instead of batteries for starting the engine and running the battery when the engine is off why don’t car petrol engines use a capacitator? No more four yearly or so battery changes.
Oops, running the radio I meant.
Capacitor technology isn’t good enough yet.
at present, they power your power windows a couple of times when the ignition i switched off and that’s it..
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
Is it possible to long term store electricity.
Yes. Pumped storage for instance is a good way to do it (in effect).
Cymek said:
Also I do wonder how much power is used to light up cities buildings at night for what appears no practical purposeWe also need to make energy use more efficient, but that applies whether we continue with a state/national grid or try and switch to micro grids.
What a bleak future it is, city lights having to be turned off to husband scarce power, electric cars in garages hardly used because the electricity is rationed and too expensive, abandoned electric vehicles strew along the highways and discarded batteries polluting or rivers and waterways, ugly wind turbines on every ridge and mountain top draining the atmosphere of it’s energy the consequences of which could be catastrophic.
Struggling farming families being raided in the middle of the night by masked officers in flack jackets from the Department of Excise and Energy for distilling fuel for their old tractors that they have hidden form being impounded and books on the internal combustion engine being burnt in the street by eco fundamentalists.
Still it wont affect me, I’ve had a pretty good life thanks to fossil fuel.
Peak Warming Man said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:We also need to make energy use more efficient, but that applies whether we continue with a state/national grid or try and switch to micro grids.
What a bleak future it is, city lights having to be turned off to husband scarce power, electric cars in garages hardly used because the electricity is rationed and too expensive, abandoned electric vehicles strew along the highways and discarded batteries polluting or rivers and waterways, ugly wind turbines on every ridge and mountain top draining the atmosphere of it’s energy the consequences of which could be catastrophic.
Struggling farming families being raided in the middle of the night by masked officers in flack jackets from the Department of Excise and Energy for distilling fuel for their old tractors that they have hidden form being impounded and books on the internal combustion engine being burnt in the street by eco fundamentalists.
Still it wont affect me, I’ve had a pretty good life thanks to fossil fuel.
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
What if every building had its own solar panel / battery storage system, along with other power generation providers?
Then a scaleable power management system that could talk to any electrical device, it would require a super computer of what capacity? It would be talking to hundreds of billions of devices at once.
Then all the things that could be done with a single device that can talk to billions of devices.
Lots of information processing similar to radio astronomy data collecting and analyzing.
Peak Warming Man said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:We also need to make energy use more efficient, but that applies whether we continue with a state/national grid or try and switch to micro grids.
What a bleak future it is, city lights having to be turned off to husband scarce power, electric cars in garages hardly used because the electricity is rationed and too expensive, abandoned electric vehicles strew along the highways and discarded batteries polluting or rivers and waterways, ugly wind turbines on every ridge and mountain top draining the atmosphere of it’s energy the consequences of which could be catastrophic.
Struggling farming families being raided in the middle of the night by masked officers in flack jackets from the Department of Excise and Energy for distilling fuel for their old tractors that they have hidden form being impounded and books on the internal combustion engine being burnt in the street by eco fundamentalists.
Still it wont affect me, I’ve had a pretty good life thanks to fossil fuel.
What does it cost to light up a skyscraper at night surely it would save the owners large amounts of money to not light them up
Why is it done ?
Peak Warming Man said:
lol
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:We also need to make energy use more efficient, but that applies whether we continue with a state/national grid or try and switch to micro grids.
What a bleak future it is, city lights having to be turned off to husband scarce power, electric cars in garages hardly used because the electricity is rationed and too expensive, abandoned electric vehicles strew along the highways and discarded batteries polluting or rivers and waterways, ugly wind turbines on every ridge and mountain top draining the atmosphere of it’s energy the consequences of which could be catastrophic.
Struggling farming families being raided in the middle of the night by masked officers in flack jackets from the Department of Excise and Energy for distilling fuel for their old tractors that they have hidden form being impounded and books on the internal combustion engine being burnt in the street by eco fundamentalists.
Still it wont affect me, I’ve had a pretty good life thanks to fossil fuel.
Tau.Neutrino said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
What if every building had its own solar panel / battery storage system, along with other power generation providers?
Then a scaleable power management system that could talk to any electrical device, it would require a super computer of what capacity? It would be talking to hundreds of billions of devices at once.
Then all the things that could be done with a single device that can talk to billions of devices.
Lots of information processing similar to radio astronomy data collecting and analyzing.
what if,
what if,
what if…
what if frogs had wings.. they wouldn’t bump their arse when they hopped….
What we need is portable batteries that can power our houses and hide them under the desk at work and charge them there
LED lights could be more efficiently directed. I think science development needs to increase in this field.
We are seeing WIFI transmissions being more efficiently directed using science and technology.
Maybe something could be learnt from that in directing light wavesmore efficiently?
Waves in a sea of other waves, can be the cause of a lot of radio pollution.
One example would be changing a wifi transmission from omni directional to just maybe a few line of sight transmissions where its used etc then the amount of power can be reduced.
Technology in directing light waves is out there.
Stumpy_seahorse said:
:)
Tau.Neutrino said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
What if every building had its own solar panel / battery storage system, along with other power generation providers?
Then a scaleable power management system that could talk to any electrical device, it would require a super computer of what capacity? It would be talking to hundreds of billions of devices at once.
Then all the things that could be done with a single device that can talk to billions of devices.
Lots of information processing similar to radio astronomy data collecting and analyzing.
what if,
what if,
what if…
what if frogs had wings.. they wouldn’t bump their arse when they hopped….
What if, what if, what if…
what if we could go to the moon…
what if frogs had wings.. .
What if, what if, what if…
what if we could go to the moon…
what if frogs had wings.. .
What if, what if, what if…
what if we could go to the moon…
what if frogs had wings…
they wouldn’t bump their arse when they hopped….
they wouldn’t sit around and wait for other frogs to do it for them…
they would use their wings…
get off their arse and do things….
What if, what if, what if…
what if we could go to the moon…
what if frogs had wings…
Cymek said:
What does it cost to light up a skyscraper at night surely it would save the owners large amounts of money to not light them up
Why is it done ?
cleaners etc. i reckon.
AwesomeO said:
Instead of batteries for starting the engine and running the battery when the engine is off why don’t car petrol engines use a capacitator? No more four yearly or so battery changes.
they are looking at super capacitor technology for just this use.
ChrispenEvan said:
Cymek said:What does it cost to light up a skyscraper at night surely it would save the owners large amounts of money to not light them up
Why is it done ?
cleaners etc. i reckon.
AwesomeO said:
Instead of batteries for starting the engine and running the battery when the engine is off why don’t car petrol engines use a capacitator? No more four yearly or so battery changes.
they are looking at super capacitor technology for just this use.
Mercedes is electrifying its vehicles. Super capacitors would fit in nicely with what they are doing.
https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/11/mercedes-benz-will-electrify-its-entire-car-lineup-by-2022/
Some new models already have this now.
Tau.Neutrino said:
ChrispenEvan said:
Cymek said:What does it cost to light up a skyscraper at night surely it would save the owners large amounts of money to not light them up
Why is it done ?
cleaners etc. i reckon.
AwesomeO said:
Instead of batteries for starting the engine and running the battery when the engine is off why don’t car petrol engines use a capacitator? No more four yearly or so battery changes.
they are looking at super capacitor technology for just this use.
Mercedes is electrifying its vehicles. Super capacitors would fit in nicely with what they are doing.
https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/11/mercedes-benz-will-electrify-its-entire-car-lineup-by-2022/
Some new models already have this now.
https://newatlas.com/mercedes-48-volt-m264-engine/52026/
Note that electricity does already compete with other forms of energy transfer, including physical transportation of fuel (natural gas, oil).
transition said:
>OK, but what I said neither stated nor implied any commitment to the growing we.dunno, I got larger social organism out of we, trending toward delusions of super organism.
Let me now what word you would like in place of “we” when I want to talk about some group of people that I am a part of, but without any implications of super organisms.
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:
>OK, but what I said neither stated nor implied any commitment to the growing we.dunno, I got larger social organism out of we, trending toward delusions of super organism.
Let me now what word you would like in place of “we” when I want to talk about some group of people that I am a part of, but without any implications of super organisms.
“we three kings or orient far…” not very super just three.
;-)
ChrispenEvan said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:
>OK, but what I said neither stated nor implied any commitment to the growing we.dunno, I got larger social organism out of we, trending toward delusions of super organism.
Let me now what word you would like in place of “we” when I want to talk about some group of people that I am a part of, but without any implications of super organisms.
“we three kings of orient far…” not very super just three.
;-)
fixed
Tau.Neutrino said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:We also need to make energy use more efficient, but that applies whether we continue with a state/national grid or try and switch to micro grids.
What if an an extremely more efficient energy system lies in another future technology?
Wouldn’t “you” want to go looking for it or leave it ?
Swap if with we for the plural.
Strange question. Why wouldn’t we use it?
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:
>OK, but what I said neither stated nor implied any commitment to the growing we.dunno, I got larger social organism out of we, trending toward delusions of super organism.
Let me now what word you would like in place of “we” when I want to talk about some group of people that I am a part of, but without any implications of super organisms.
You could simply have said:
The fact is that non-super-organism-we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but non-super-organism-we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
It will be simpler if we just continue to use English conventionally. That way, we’ll understand each other.
Tau.Neutrino said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
What if every building had its own solar panel / battery storage system, along with other power generation providers?
Then a scaleable power management system that could talk to any electrical device, it would require a super computer of what capacity? It would be talking to hundreds of billions of devices at once.
Then all the things that could be done with a single device that can talk to billions of devices.
Lots of information processing similar to radio astronomy data collecting and analyzing.
You are over-complicating it, but yes, that is one advantage of a big grid.
dv said:
It will be simpler if we just continue to use English conventionally. That way, we’ll understand each other.
What you mean ‘we’, paleface?
dv said:
Note that electricity does already compete with other forms of energy transfer, including physical transportation of fuel (natural gas, oil).
Yes, but they have a habit of running out. but there are still lots of reserves around. Especially in space.
Someone could mine all this hydrogen, helium and other space gases and bring it to Earth.
Wonders how the stock market would look with space resources, the same, a bit bigger here and there?
Bubblecar said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:
>OK, but what I said neither stated nor implied any commitment to the growing we.dunno, I got larger social organism out of we, trending toward delusions of super organism.
Let me now what word you would like in place of “we” when I want to talk about some group of people that I am a part of, but without any implications of super organisms.
You could simply have said:
The fact is that non-super-organism-we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but non-super-organism-we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
Could I get away with nsowe instead?
Tau.Neutrino said:
Wonders how the stock market would look with space resources, the same, a bit bigger here and there?
Never mind that, think of the futures market!
Whole new areas in which to bet with other peoples’ money on the value of things that do not exist, have never existed, and, in all likelihood, never will exist!
The Rev Dodgson said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
There is a lot of either-orist hype about going off grid or microgrids.The fact is we need to make much better use of local generation and storage, but we also need much more long term back-up, and long range supply, which both require a large scale grid.
What if every building had its own solar panel / battery storage system, along with other power generation providers?
Then a scaleable power management system that could talk to any electrical device, it would require a super computer of what capacity? It would be talking to hundreds of billions of devices at once.
Then all the things that could be done with a single device that can talk to billions of devices.
Lots of information processing similar to radio astronomy data collecting and analyzing.
You are over-complicating it, but yes, that is one advantage of a big grid.
Space stations on the moon and on Mars will require very smart scaleable power grids.
Tau.Neutrino said:
dv said:
Note that electricity does already compete with other forms of energy transfer, including physical transportation of fuel (natural gas, oil).
Yes, but they have a habit of running out. but there are still lots of reserves around. Especially in space.
Someone could mine all this hydrogen, helium and other space gases and bring it to Earth.
Wonders how the stock market would look with space resources, the same, a bit bigger here and there?
I could be wrong, but it seems very improbable to me that mining hydrogen from space will prove to be a more efficient option than mining hydrogen here on Earth, combined with using solar power directly without introducing hydrogen.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Space stations on the moon and on Mars will require very smart scaleable power grids.
The ones on Mars will only have to work for a limited time.
Once people realise that there’s no point in making a one-way trip to an airless, lifeless desert shit-hole, and the first ones die off, there’ll be no need for electricity on Mars.
Tau.Neutrino said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Tau.Neutrino said:What if every building had its own solar panel / battery storage system, along with other power generation providers?
Then a scaleable power management system that could talk to any electrical device, it would require a super computer of what capacity? It would be talking to hundreds of billions of devices at once.
Then all the things that could be done with a single device that can talk to billions of devices.
Lots of information processing similar to radio astronomy data collecting and analyzing.
You are over-complicating it, but yes, that is one advantage of a big grid.
Space stations on the moon and on Mars will require very smart scaleable power grids.
Really large space craft like the Death Star would also require smart scalable grids
Perhaps the death star wouldn’t have been able to have been blown up by luke skywalker if it had used micro grids
The ISS uses scaleable grids doesn’t it?
They can add or remove modules to it.
Tau.Neutrino said:
I’m not putting money into space Helium for energy use. For making funny voices and filling balloons, maybe. Even then it’d have to be a whole lot scarcer than it is now (and I know it already is scarce).
dv said:
Note that electricity does already compete with other forms of energy transfer, including physical transportation of fuel (natural gas, oil).
Yes, but they have a habit of running out. but there are still lots of reserves around. Especially in space.
Someone could mine all this hydrogen, helium and other space gases and bring it to Earth.
Wonders how the stock market would look with space resources, the same, a bit bigger here and there?
captain_spalding said:
:)
Tau.Neutrino said:Space stations on the moon and on Mars will require very smart scaleable power grids.
The ones on Mars will only have to work for a limited time.
Once people realise that there’s no point in making a one-way trip to an airless, lifeless desert shit-hole, and the first ones die off, there’ll be no need for electricity on Mars.
Well put!
:)
Michael V said:
captain_spalding said::)
Tau.Neutrino said:Space stations on the moon and on Mars will require very smart scaleable power grids.
The ones on Mars will only have to work for a limited time.
Once people realise that there’s no point in making a one-way trip to an airless, lifeless desert shit-hole, and the first ones die off, there’ll be no need for electricity on Mars.
Well put!
:)
Robots for mining stuff on Mars will still require power to do so.
Humans going to Mars, would be for ultra rich space tourists which might filter down to the masses over time.
For the Moon. Both a central and individual power grid built into the moon caves would be essential I would think.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Michael V said:
captain_spalding said::)The ones on Mars will only have to work for a limited time.
Once people realise that there’s no point in making a one-way trip to an airless, lifeless desert shit-hole, and the first ones die off, there’ll be no need for electricity on Mars.
Well put!
:)
Robots for mining stuff on Mars will still require power to do so.
Humans going to Mars, would be for ultra rich space tourists which might filter down to the masses over time.
For the Moon. Both a central and individual power grid built into the moon caves would be essential I would think.
If one was designing a new city from scratch many different technologies could be used together.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Meet the microgrid, the technology poised to transform electricityThis is the path to a cleaner, more reliable, more resilient energy grid.
more..
Further reading
One of us will be writing more about microgrids soon. In the meantime, there are a gazillion reports floating around. A selection:
GTM: U.S. Microgrids 2017: Market Drivers, Analysis and Forecast
Institute for Local Self-Reliance: Mighty Microgrids
Navigant Research: “Market Data: Microgrids and Military Microgrids
NEMA: Powering Microgrids for the 21st-Century Electrical System
Alireza Aram, Energy Solutions Division, Hitachi America: Microgrid Market in the USA – PDF
DOE: The U.S. Department of Energy’s Microgrid Initiative – PDF
A virtual power plant (VPP) is a cloud-based distributed power plant that aggregates the capacities of heterogeneous Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) for the purposes of enhancing power generation, as well as trading or selling power on the open market. Examples of virtual power plants exist in the United States, Europe, and Australia.
more…
I wonder if you could use biological movement to generate power for battery storage
Cymek said:
I wonder if you could use biological movement to generate power for battery storage
Like using virus and bacteria, other ways?
Tau.Neutrino said:
Cymek said:
I wonder if you could use biological movement to generate power for battery storage
Like using virus and bacteria, other ways?
I was thinking putting harnesses on animals (cows, sheep, etc) and their movement generates power but I was being somewhat silly
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:
>OK, but what I said neither stated nor implied any commitment to the growing we.dunno, I got larger social organism out of we, trending toward delusions of super organism.
Let me now what word you would like in place of “we” when I want to talk about some group of people that I am a part of, but without any implications of super organisms.
let we have us our fun
Tau.Neutrino said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Tau.Neutrino said:What if every building had its own solar panel / battery storage system, along with other power generation providers?
Then a scaleable power management system that could talk to any electrical device, it would require a super computer of what capacity? It would be talking to hundreds of billions of devices at once.
Then all the things that could be done with a single device that can talk to billions of devices.
Lots of information processing similar to radio astronomy data collecting and analyzing.
You are over-complicating it, but yes, that is one advantage of a big grid.
Space stations on the moon and on Mars will require very smart scaleable power grids.
Hard thing to do on Mars, harder than trying to work out Boris’ zodiac sign.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Beyond Electricity.Thoughts?
What will replace the current electricity system we have?
Some kind of pure superconducting plasma?
Something less ambitious?
Not quite on topic but close enough.
I’ve been thinking on and off about utility supply to houses. in addition to what we have now.
For starters – 1.5 Volt DC supply would do away with all those transformers around the house. Direct supply for computer equipment, phones and lighting.
Greywater supply – to be used for washing and garden watering.
Hot water supply – no more water heaters needed for houses.
Emergency oxygen supply to houses. For use when there are breathing difficulties, as well as for welding.
Demineralised water supply to all houses.
Petrol supply line to fill up the car at home.
“Gas and air” nitrous oxide supply for emergency pain relief.
Welding gases – argon & acetylene.
Compressed air supply.
Pneumatic tube for fast deliveries of letters and small parcels, replaces “meals on wheels”.
Dry chemical, foam, carbon dioxide or halon supply for extinguishing fires rapidly.
Cold supply – to replace air conditioners and refrigerators.
Vacuum – for cleaning just plug into the wall socket.
Is that enough?
Cymek said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Cymek said:
I wonder if you could use biological movement to generate power for battery storage
Like using virus and bacteria, other ways?
I was thinking putting harnesses on animals (cows, sheep, etc) and their movement generates power but I was being somewhat silly
I wonder if horses could pull an efficient dynamo round a track? Probably already been tried.
Wonders what latest technology could do?
They could have had dynamos fitted to horse drawn carriages, probably someone has done it.
I dont think it took off.
For starters – 1.5 Volt DC supply would do away with all those transformers around the house. Direct supply for computer equipment, phones and lighting.
5V is more common.
Emergency oxygen supply to houses. For use when there are breathing difficulties, as well as for welding.
great in a house fire.
Petrol supply line to fill up the car at home.
Great in a house fire.
“Gas and air” nitrous oxide supply for emergency pain relief.
Hmmmm abused much?
Welding gases – argon & acetylene.
Cost re any leakage and great in a house fire.
Dry chemical, foam, carbon dioxide or halon supply for extinguishing fires rapidly.
Halon would be a health problem for occupants.
mollwollfumble said:
LOL
Tau.Neutrino said:
Beyond Electricity.Thoughts?
What will replace the current electricity system we have?
Some kind of pure superconducting plasma?
Something less ambitious?
Not quite on topic but close enough.
I’ve been thinking on and off about utility supply to houses. in addition to what we have now.
For starters – 1.5 Volt DC supply would do away with all those transformers around the house. Direct supply for computer equipment, phones and lighting.
Greywater supply – to be used for washing and garden watering.
Hot water supply – no more water heaters needed for houses.
Emergency oxygen supply to houses. For use when there are breathing difficulties, as well as for welding.
Demineralised water supply to all houses.
Petrol supply line to fill up the car at home.
“Gas and air” nitrous oxide supply for emergency pain relief.
Welding gases – argon & acetylene.
Compressed air supply.
Pneumatic tube for fast deliveries of letters and small parcels, replaces “meals on wheels”.
Dry chemical, foam, carbon dioxide or halon supply for extinguishing fires rapidly.
Cold supply – to replace air conditioners and refrigerators.
Vacuum – for cleaning just plug into the wall socket.Is that enough?
:)
Tau.Neutrino said:
Horse gear. I had a friend who had two. One for a single horse, one for three horses.
Cymek said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Like using virus and bacteria, other ways?
I was thinking putting harnesses on animals (cows, sheep, etc) and their movement generates power but I was being somewhat silly
I wonder if horses could pull an efficient dynamo round a track? Probably already been tried.
Wonders what latest technology could do?
They could have had dynamos fitted to horse drawn carriages, probably someone has done it.
I dont think it took off.
mollwollfumble said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Beyond Electricity.Thoughts?
What will replace the current electricity system we have?
Some kind of pure superconducting plasma?
Something less ambitious?
Not quite on topic but close enough.
I’ve been thinking on and off about utility supply to houses. in addition to what we have now.
For starters – 1.5 Volt DC supply would do away with all those transformers around the house. Direct supply for computer equipment, phones and lighting.
Greywater supply – to be used for washing and garden watering.
Hot water supply – no more water heaters needed for houses.
Emergency oxygen supply to houses. For use when there are breathing difficulties, as well as for welding.
Demineralised water supply to all houses.
Petrol supply line to fill up the car at home.
“Gas and air” nitrous oxide supply for emergency pain relief.
Welding gases – argon & acetylene.
Compressed air supply.
Pneumatic tube for fast deliveries of letters and small parcels, replaces “meals on wheels”.
Dry chemical, foam, carbon dioxide or halon supply for extinguishing fires rapidly.
Cold supply – to replace air conditioners and refrigerators.
Vacuum – for cleaning just plug into the wall socket.Is that enough?
Probably a 5V DV USB system would be better. I would be worried about transmission losses (even within a house) if you had a separate grid for them. Easiest thing to do would be to replace the current standard double wall power points with one that includes a built-in USB transformer. They make them already, I was offered them as an option when building my house but they were a bit exxy.
Petrol. welding gases etc – not necessary for the average household.
>For starters – 1.5 Volt DC supply would do away with all those transformers around the house
you can lose 1.5V in a length of wire/cable real easy
I see 1.5V+ a few more disappear and turn into heat all the time, does no work at all, and that’s when I started with 240 of them, in which case it hardly matters, using a modest wire cross sectional diameter.
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Wonders how the stock market would look with space resources, the same, a bit bigger here and there?
Never mind that, think of the futures market!
Whole new areas in which to bet with other peoples’ money on the value of things that do not exist, have never existed, and, in all likelihood, never will exist!
You sound misinformed. Futues markets have real and tangible benefits.
transition said:
>For starters – 1.5 Volt DC supply would do away with all those transformers around the houseyou can lose 1.5V in a length of wire/cable real easy
I see 1.5V+ a few more disappear and turn into heat all the time, does no work at all, and that’s when I started with 240 of them, in which case it hardly matters, using a modest wire cross sectional diameter.
using a modest wire cross sectional diameter.
should read cross sectional area
get it right
Witty Rejoinder said:
captain_spalding said:
Tau.Neutrino said:Wonders how the stock market would look with space resources, the same, a bit bigger here and there?
Never mind that, think of the futures market!
Whole new areas in which to bet with other peoples’ money on the value of things that do not exist, have never existed, and, in all likelihood, never will exist!
You sound misinformed. Futues markets have real and tangible benefits.
OK, but my premise still holds.
captain_spalding said:
Witty Rejoinder said:
captain_spalding said:Never mind that, think of the futures market!
Whole new areas in which to bet with other peoples’ money on the value of things that do not exist, have never existed, and, in all likelihood, never will exist!
You sound misinformed. Futues markets have real and tangible benefits.
OK, but my premise still holds.
What premise is that?
I recall an instance in the futures market some years back when, through some oversight, something was about to fall due , and it appeared that someone, somewhere would have to produce the items which had been touted – i recall it was live steers, of a certain age and minimum weight, with a thickness of fat of so many mm at the nth rib, etc. etc.
Lots of people in expensive suits were getting extremely emotional as the day approached, but somehow a solution was found, and the contracts were extended considerably.
Whew!
Tau.Neutrino said:
Beyond Electricity.Thoughts?
What will replace the current electricity system we have?
Some kind of pure superconducting plasma?
Something less ambitious?
Thought process starting.
Let’s start by going back 2,000 years.
Utilities back then were:
Electricity is nice because electrons are stable (don’t decay like neutrons and muons, and plasmas), lightweight so cheap to move, and high grade (unlike for example mechanical or thermal energy). High grade means that electricity can be converted into mechanical and thermal energy without significant loss whereas the opposite is not true.
Could optical fibres replace electric power? Photons are also stable, lightweight, cheap to move. But so far there are energy losses in converting photons into electricity – or are there – energy losses for the conversion of monochromatic light to electricity may be reducible to near zero. What about energy losses for transmission over long distances? With improved technology not too different between optic fibre and electric power.
Could I efficiently run my microwave oven off the power from an optic fibre?
Could I efficiently run a 150 kW three phase motor from an optical fibre?
I can’t see any real reason why not, give improvements in photonic technology. Whereas few optic fibres now carry power at a greater intensity than 0.001 Watts, “An ultrafast laser pulse can have peak power of around 10 15 watts, and will happily go down an optical fibre if you spread it in directions orthogonal to the beam such that it has low enough intensity to avoid destroying the fibre. This might require a slightly wider core than standard, but is routinely done.” from https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/4lp6on/how_much_power_can_an_optical_fiber_carry/
The futures market is founded on the basis that you never expect to take ownership of the specified items. Your goal is to sell the putative ownership of the items (which almost certainly do not yet exist) to some other sucker at a profit.
The bet is that you’ll find that sucker before the date on which the items will allegedly be produced – otherwise, you’ll be down a lot of dosh, and there’ll quite likely be nothing to show for it.
captain_spalding said:
The futures market is founded on the basis that you never expect to take ownership of the specified items. Your goal is to sell the putative ownership of the items (which almost certainly do not yet exist) to some other sucker at a profit.The bet is that you’ll find that sucker before the date on which the items will allegedly be produced – otherwise, you’ll be down a lot of dosh, and there’ll quite likely be nothing to show for it.
I thought it was founded on pork and sellers securing a market before they went to the trouble of breeding the pigs which they would sell to a guaranteed buyer…in the future.
In fact it was mostly an agricultural initiative and it was risk management from the farmer.
Witty Rejoinder said:
captain_spalding said:
Witty Rejoinder said:You sound misinformed. Futues markets have real and tangible benefits.
OK, but my premise still holds.
What premise is that?
That the future does not exist.
Something like that I think.
AwesomeO said:
I thought it was founded on pork and sellers securing a market before they went to the trouble of breeding the pigs which they would sell to a guaranteed buyer…in the future.
In fact it was mostly an agricultural initiative and it was risk management from the farmer.
That was the idea. But, then some smart people realised that they might find a buyer for the ‘ownership’ of those yet-to-be-born pigs to whom they coud sell the rights at a profit, and never have to actually deal with the pigs.
Once that idea took hold, there was suddenly futures markets for lots of things, and few people cared if the specified items ever came into existence. The physical goods were secondary to the profits from the sale of their future ownership.
mollwollfumble said:
Not quite on topic but close enough.I’ve been thinking on and off about utility supply to houses. in addition to what we have now.
For starters – 1.5 Volt DC supply would do away with all those transformers around the house.
Stops reading.
You do know why Tesla invented AC, don’t you?
btm said:
mollwollfumble said:
Not quite on topic but close enough.I’ve been thinking on and off about utility supply to houses. in addition to what we have now.
For starters – 1.5 Volt DC supply would do away with all those transformers around the house.
Stops reading.
You do know why Tesla invented AC, don’t you?
Death rays? Actually I do know, read it the other day, big voltages can be sent through wires then stepped down to 110 (in America). Previously with DC, the houses at one end of the street would have blazing lights and the one at the end would have a dim yellow glow. And you would need a generating station on every block.
Or so is my understanding.
btm said:
mollwollfumble said:
Not quite on topic but close enough.I’ve been thinking on and off about utility supply to houses. in addition to what we have now.
For starters – 1.5 Volt DC supply would do away with all those transformers around the house.
Stops reading.
You do know why Tesla invented AC, don’t you?
Bon Scott needed a longer band name?
btm said:
mollwollfumble said:
Not quite on topic but close enough.I’ve been thinking on and off about utility supply to houses. in addition to what we have now.
For starters – 1.5 Volt DC supply would do away with all those transformers around the house.
Stops reading.
You do know why Tesla invented AC, don’t you?
he didn’t, but i think you know that.
:-)
Stumpy_seahorse said:
btm said:
mollwollfumble said:
Not quite on topic but close enough.I’ve been thinking on and off about utility supply to houses. in addition to what we have now.
For starters – 1.5 Volt DC supply would do away with all those transformers around the house.
Stops reading.
You do know why Tesla invented AC, don’t you?
Bon Scott needed a longer band name?
I seem to recall as AC/DC they had a different lead singer before Bon.
Hippolyte Pixii was the first person to build an AC generator. That was in 1832.
AwesomeO said:
captain_spalding said:
The futures market is founded on the basis that you never expect to take ownership of the specified items. Your goal is to sell the putative ownership of the items (which almost certainly do not yet exist) to some other sucker at a profit.The bet is that you’ll find that sucker before the date on which the items will allegedly be produced – otherwise, you’ll be down a lot of dosh, and there’ll quite likely be nothing to show for it.
I thought it was founded on pork and sellers securing a market before they went to the trouble of breeding the pigs which they would sell to a guaranteed buyer…in the future.
In fact it was mostly an agricultural initiative and it was risk management from the farmer.
These guys got burnt by the futures market
AwesomeO said:
btm said:
mollwollfumble said:
Not quite on topic but close enough.I’ve been thinking on and off about utility supply to houses. in addition to what we have now.
For starters – 1.5 Volt DC supply would do away with all those transformers around the house.
Stops reading.
You do know why Tesla invented AC, don’t you?
Death rays? Actually I do know, read it the other day, big voltages can be sent through wires then stepped down to 110 (in America). Previously with DC, the houses at one end of the street would have blazing lights and the one at the end would have a dim yellow glow. And you would need a generating station on every block.
Or so is my understanding.
Isn’t that how the NBN works
dv said:
Thanks.
Hippolyte Pixii was the first person to build an AC generator. That was in 1832.
What a name, eh?
Michael V said:
dv said:Thanks.
Hippolyte Pixii was the first person to build an AC generator. That was in 1832.
What a name, eh?
It’s the major reason that electrical engineers are considered to be away with the pixiis.
sibeen said:
:)
Michael V said:
dv said:Thanks.
Hippolyte Pixii was the first person to build an AC generator. That was in 1832.
What a name, eh?
It’s the major reason that electrical engineers are considered to be away with the pixiis.
sibeen said:
Michael V said:
dv said:Thanks.
Hippolyte Pixii was the first person to build an AC generator. That was in 1832.
What a name, eh?
It’s the major reason that electrical engineers are considered to be away with the pixiis.
From more recent thread:
“For example, they could track the decline of steam and corresponding rise of electricity – the opposing trajectories crossed each other in 1898.”
should mention, to rev, and neutrino I think it was (call it an apology), that I don’t have a problem with the use of the term we, their use, uses, whatever, it’s more some aspects of the force of culture, of those pretensions not to be a force also.
frankly a bit more useful we would be good.
ambivalence is what I have about the force of culture, well, the many, the work of the dominant species, dominance.
unqualified inclusive terms spook me.
there has always been comfort/s in numbers, the expanding human population being no exception, to a point.
i’m staying with the view that many conversations are had in this age instead of conversations about overpopulation. The workarounds the taboo.
like you know what Australians do for energy (now and into the future) is influenced by carbon emissions elsewhere in the world (which is related to population growth, rates now and projections).
on the subject of the evolution of the power grid, it will more trend toward a distributed source, which is really load sharing I guess. Smart management of power systems will become commonplace, within and over different scales.
i’m not sure how they’re going to do the grunt base load though, in a system that needs to harden against a failure somewhere bringing down more than a minimum of the network. I might be wrong, but that sort of redundancy requires more wire etc, more complexity, more base load provisioning (more medium size supplies).
somewhere down the track i’d expect Australia will be using nuclear power.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Australia
there isn’t much we can do about overpopulation. we can do stuff about power generation.
what conversations do you want to have about overpopulation? what are you solutions?
ChrispenEvan said:
there isn’t much we can do about overpopulation. we can do stuff about power generation.what conversations do you want to have about overpopulation? what are you solutions?
Overpopulation will probably sort itself out by killing us off?
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
there isn’t much we can do about overpopulation. we can do stuff about power generation.what conversations do you want to have about overpopulation? what are you solutions?
Overpopulation will probably sort itself out by killing us off?
so no need to do anything then? good, we can concentrate on working on power generation.
>there isn’t much we can do about overpopulation.
there ya go
transition said:
>there isn’t much we can do about overpopulation.there ya go
so that is the level of the conversation you have? nothing more? Come on you keep banging on about it add something.
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
there isn’t much we can do about overpopulation. we can do stuff about power generation.what conversations do you want to have about overpopulation? what are you solutions?
Overpopulation will probably sort itself out by killing us off?
so no need to do anything then? good, we can concentrate on working on power generation.
sticking to what we know and all that, sound strategy :)
thing is there are plenty of people actually doing something about overpopulation. educating women in developing countries so then they earn better income and so need fewer kids. better health, so fewer kids. raising the standard of living, so fewer kids.
ChrispenEvan said:
thing is there are plenty of people actually doing something about overpopulation. educating women in developing countries so then they earn better income and so need fewer kids. better health, so fewer kids. raising the standard of living, so fewer kids.
so i guess if you don’t bother to read about such things you can then pretend that there isn’t a “conversation”.
the decline in the world’s birthrate is attributable to these programs. Plus a decline in the fertility rate. we’ve talked about these quite a few times here.
ChrispenEvan said:
thing is there are plenty of people actually doing something about overpopulation. educating women in developing countries so then they earn better income and so need fewer kids. better health, so fewer kids. raising the standard of living, so fewer kids.
Yes. Though we still have to get through the period that is upon us now where overpopulation is reaching its peak effect. By that I wasn’t speaking of a peak in population but a peak in the effect that overpopulation has had.
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
thing is there are plenty of people actually doing something about overpopulation. educating women in developing countries so then they earn better income and so need fewer kids. better health, so fewer kids. raising the standard of living, so fewer kids.Yes. Though we still have to get through the period that is upon us now where overpopulation is reaching its peak effect. By that I wasn’t speaking of a peak in population but a peak in the effect that overpopulation has had.
so, what are your suggestions?
ChrispenEvan said:
transition said:
>there isn’t much we can do about overpopulation.there ya go
so that is the level of the conversation you have? nothing more? Come on you keep banging on about it add something.
oh, I misread you, I struggled to find any encouragement in there isn’t much we can do about overpopulation, for a moment I thought i’d ventured too close to a black hole. You’re safe company now.
bump me tomorrow, if your enthusiasm stays.
ChrispenEvan said:
ChrispenEvan said:
thing is there are plenty of people actually doing something about overpopulation. educating women in developing countries so then they earn better income and so need fewer kids. better health, so fewer kids. raising the standard of living, so fewer kids.so i guess if you don’t bother to read about such things you can then pretend that there isn’t a “conversation”.
the decline in the world’s birthrate is attributable to these programs. Plus a decline in the fertility rate. we’ve talked about these quite a few times here.
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
thing is there are plenty of people actually doing something about overpopulation. educating women in developing countries so then they earn better income and so need fewer kids. better health, so fewer kids. raising the standard of living, so fewer kids.Yes. Though we still have to get through the period that is upon us now where overpopulation is reaching its peak effect. By that I wasn’t speaking of a peak in population but a peak in the effect that overpopulation has had.
so, what are your suggestions?
As to getting through this period? Apart from the option of sticking your head between your legs and kissing your arse goodbye?
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
ChrispenEvan said:
thing is there are plenty of people actually doing something about overpopulation. educating women in developing countries so then they earn better income and so need fewer kids. better health, so fewer kids. raising the standard of living, so fewer kids.so i guess if you don’t bother to read about such things you can then pretend that there isn’t a “conversation”.
the decline in the world’s birthrate is attributable to these programs. Plus a decline in the fertility rate. we’ve talked about these quite a few times here.
So overpopulation is killing off the problem? Or is there another definition?
how did you get that from my post?
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:Yes. Though we still have to get through the period that is upon us now where overpopulation is reaching its peak effect. By that I wasn’t speaking of a peak in population but a peak in the effect that overpopulation has had.
so, what are your suggestions?
As to getting through this period? ….
yes
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:so i guess if you don’t bother to read about such things you can then pretend that there isn’t a “conversation”.
the decline in the world’s birthrate is attributable to these programs. Plus a decline in the fertility rate. we’ve talked about these quite a few times here.
So overpopulation is killing off the problem? Or is there another definition?how did you get that from my post?
Have they put a tag on what is causing the decline in fertility?
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:so, what are your suggestions?
As to getting through this period? ….
yes
Well it is going to be difficult. Even for the Indian who wants to put 800 million young people to work.
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:As to getting through this period? ….
yes
Well it is going to be difficult. Even for the Indian who wants to put 800 million young people to work.
and er, why am I supposed to be the one with suggestions?
We could all eat less meat, plant more trees, give ourselves work to do instead of play computer games and bash people.
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:So overpopulation is killing off the problem? Or is there another definition?
how did you get that from my post?
Have they put a tag on what is causing the decline in fertility?
family planning programs appears to be one of the major causes.
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:how did you get that from my post?
Have they put a tag on what is causing the decline in fertility?
family planning programs appears to be one of the major causes.
I was talking about fertility. They are different things.
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:Have they put a tag on what is causing the decline in fertility?
family planning programs appears to be one of the major causes.
I was talking about fertility. They are different things.
yes. take the pill and that affects fertility.
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:family planning programs appears to be one of the major causes.
I was talking about fertility. They are different things.
yes. take the pill and that affects fertility.
You are trying to pull my chain and you know it.
https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#family-planning
section II.5 Family planning.
mentions contraceptives.
ChrispenEvan said:
https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#family-planningsection II.5 Family planning.
mentions contraceptives.
I was referring to the loss of fertility in males.
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#family-planningsection II.5 Family planning.
mentions contraceptives.
I was referring to the loss of fertility in males.
does that have much of an impact?
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate#family-planningsection II.5 Family planning.
mentions contraceptives.
I was referring to the loss of fertility in males.
does that have much of an impact?
I don’t really know yet(which is why I asked the question) but there has been a significant decrease in male fertility rates.
fertility rates are the measure of the number of children a woman has over her life. the site i linked to explain this definition. it also gives reasons. male fertility doesn’t get a mention.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253726/
Fertility and the Aging Male
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-26/sperm-concentrations-in-western-men-declined-over-40yrs-study/8743020
ChrispenEvan said:
fertility rates are the measure of the number of children a woman has over her life. the site i linked to explain this definition. it also gives reasons. male fertility doesn’t get a mention.
sperm counts then?
ChrispenEvan said:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3253726/Fertility and the Aging Male
No. The decline was in young males.
ChrispenEvan said:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-26/sperm-concentrations-in-western-men-declined-over-40yrs-study/8743020
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/sperm-count-west-men-health-drop-60-per-cent-years-modern-life-a7859491.html
ChrispenEvan said:
ChrispenEvan said:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-26/sperm-concentrations-in-western-men-declined-over-40yrs-study/8743020
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/sperm-count-west-men-health-drop-60-per-cent-years-modern-life-a7859491.html
so, going by those figures western men only are affected and the west already had a lower fertility rate in women.
ChrispenEvan said:
ChrispenEvan said:
ChrispenEvan said:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-26/sperm-concentrations-in-western-men-declined-over-40yrs-study/8743020
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/sperm-count-west-men-health-drop-60-per-cent-years-modern-life-a7859491.html
so, going by those figures western men only are affected and the west already had a lower fertility rate in women.
OK. I was under the impression world wide meant all men but if it is only worldwide western men then that could possibly account for all the coffee coloured people in the great big melting pot.
ChrispenEvan said:
how did you get that from my post?
Well isn’t it because of overpopulation that family planning programs were put in place?
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
ChrispenEvan said:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/sperm-count-west-men-health-drop-60-per-cent-years-modern-life-a7859491.html
so, going by those figures western men only are affected and the west already had a lower fertility rate in women.
OK. I was under the impression world wide meant all men but if it is only worldwide western men then that could possibly account for all the coffee coloured people in the great big melting pot.
*sings
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
how did you get that from my post?
Well isn’t it because of overpopulation that family planning programs were put in place?
well family planning didn’t start out for that reason. it was mainly to stop women dying in illegal abortions and death in childbirth. in the early days contraceptives were uncommon and unreliable. Plus there were family financial reasons.
sarahs mum said:
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:so, going by those figures western men only are affected and the west already had a lower fertility rate in women.
OK. I was under the impression world wide meant all men but if it is only worldwide western men then that could possibly account for all the coffee coloured people in the great big melting pot.
*sings
:) Lyrics fill my head.
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:ChrispenEvan said:
how did you get that from my post?
Well isn’t it because of overpopulation that family planning programs were put in place?
well family planning didn’t start out for that reason. it was mainly to stop women dying in illegal abortions and death in childbirth. in the early days contraceptives were uncommon and unreliable. Plus there were family financial reasons.
Yes but there are more incentives now.
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:Well isn’t it because of overpopulation that family planning programs were put in place?
well family planning didn’t start out for that reason. it was mainly to stop women dying in illegal abortions and death in childbirth. in the early days contraceptives were uncommon and unreliable. Plus there were family financial reasons.
Yes but there are more incentives now.
maybe, but those reasons are still the main goals of family planning, not reducing world population.
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:well family planning didn’t start out for that reason. it was mainly to stop women dying in illegal abortions and death in childbirth. in the early days contraceptives were uncommon and unreliable. Plus there were family financial reasons.
Yes but there are more incentives now.
maybe, but those reasons are still the main goals of family planning, not reducing world population.
Yes but you are saying that this is reducing world population. Or you were.
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:Yes but there are more incentives now.
maybe, but those reasons are still the main goals of family planning, not reducing world population.
Yes but you are saying that this is reducing world population. Or you were.
it is. but that is not the reason it is implemented. it is more to do with women’s health and reducing the world’s population is an added benefit. can you imagine going to women in a poor area and just telling them not to have so many kids because the world doesn’t need them?
ChrispenEvan said:
roughbarked said:
ChrispenEvan said:maybe, but those reasons are still the main goals of family planning, not reducing world population.
Yes but you are saying that this is reducing world population. Or you were.
it is. but that is not the reason it is implemented. it is more to do with women’s health and reducing the world’s population is an added benefit. can you imagine going to women in a poor area and just telling them not to have so many kids because the world doesn’t need them?
ha ha. Yes. Well you do have a point there.
But the greatest impact of overpopulation at least in the production area, is upon the females.
Tau.Neutrino said:
Beyond Electricity.Thoughts?
What will replace the current electricity system we have?
Some kind of pure superconducting plasma?
Something less ambitious?
A little more thought.
If photons in optic fibres (photonics) replace electrons in wires (electricity) then the photons don’t have to be in the visible range. So what EM frequency would be best?
Higher frequencies carry more energy. X-rays tend to be scattered too easily by atomic spacings. Ultraviolet would require special elements that don’t adsorb photons by jumping electrons up to a higher quantum levels – not impossible.
But glass doesn’t do so well for UV transmission. What about a small micron diameter vacuum tube with mirrored inner surface for transmitting EM frequencies other than in the visible range.
For UV near the visible range we have “The recent fabrication of rare earth-doped fluoro-zirconate (ZBLAN) glass fiber has spurred the development of a family of visible and ultraviolet fiber lasers pumped by upconversion. The performance of CW room temperature devices demonstrated to date is reviewed with emphasis on the recently reported Nd-doped ZBLAN fiber laser operating in the ultraviolet at 381 nm.”
But that’s still glass fibre. I’m thinking more like this type of holey fibre. This may work at shorter wavelengths.
mollwollfumble said:
Tau.Neutrino said:
Beyond Electricity.Thoughts?
What will replace the current electricity system we have?
Some kind of pure superconducting plasma?
Something less ambitious?
A little more thought.
If photons in optic fibres (photonics) replace electrons in wires (electricity) then the photons don’t have to be in the visible range. So what EM frequency would be best?
Higher frequencies carry more energy. X-rays tend to be scattered too easily by atomic spacings. Ultraviolet would require special elements that don’t adsorb photons by jumping electrons up to a higher quantum levels – not impossible.
But glass doesn’t do so well for UV transmission. What about a small micron diameter vacuum tube with mirrored inner surface for transmitting EM frequencies other than in the visible range.
I think I’ll stick with wire for the foreseeable* future.
*Where foreseeable probably means up until the heat death of the universe.
I guess one could instead take beyond electricity to mean using less of it, it’s not exactly a modest electrification that’s fueling human civilization.
I’m thinking some better use of energy gradients (produced very local to wherever put to work) , thermal energy gradients(IR, and visible light), the sun’s energy, day/night cycles for example.
Fairly much all of life exploits energy gradients, amongst it, part of it
Probably spawned life (abiogenesis), and drove evolution.
So, if I thought outside my electrified, ideological view of life, I might return for a moment to organic life.
Sever the umbilical cord, the grid, the gadgets etc, remind myself of the switch flickers paradise, the mirage.
Reminding myself there is another grid, that’s organic, riding the thermal gradients of past and present, and those gradients over time embedded order, structure. I’m thinkng Prigogene, maybe, without looking it up. Dissipative structures.
transition said:
I guess one could instead take beyond electricity to mean using less of it, it’s not exactly a modest electrification that’s fueling human civilization.I’m thinking some better use of energy gradients (produced very local to wherever put to work) , thermal energy gradients(IR, and visible light), the sun’s energy, day/night cycles for example.
Fairly much all of life exploits energy gradients, amongst it, part of it
Probably spawned life (abiogenesis), and drove evolution.
So, if I thought outside my electrified, ideological view of life, I might return for a moment to organic life.
Sever the umbilical cord, the grid, the gadgets etc, remind myself of the switch flickers paradise, the mirage.
Reminding myself there is another grid, that’s organic, riding the thermal gradients of past and present, and those gradients over time embedded order, structure. I’m thinkng Prigogene, maybe, without looking it up. Dissipative structures.
Could do that I suppose.
Or could just put a price on electricity that made people less inclined to waste it.
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:
I guess one could instead take beyond electricity to mean using less of it, it’s not exactly a modest electrification that’s fueling human civilization.I’m thinking some better use of energy gradients (produced very local to wherever put to work) , thermal energy gradients(IR, and visible light), the sun’s energy, day/night cycles for example.
Fairly much all of life exploits energy gradients, amongst it, part of it
Probably spawned life (abiogenesis), and drove evolution.
So, if I thought outside my electrified, ideological view of life, I might return for a moment to organic life.
Sever the umbilical cord, the grid, the gadgets etc, remind myself of the switch flickers paradise, the mirage.
Reminding myself there is another grid, that’s organic, riding the thermal gradients of past and present, and those gradients over time embedded order, structure. I’m thinkng Prigogene, maybe, without looking it up. Dissipative structures.
Could do that I suppose.
Or could just put a price on electricity that made people less inclined to waste it.
Or could just generate it using hydrogen bombs.
mollwollfumble said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:
I guess one could instead take beyond electricity to mean using less of it, it’s not exactly a modest electrification that’s fueling human civilization.I’m thinking some better use of energy gradients (produced very local to wherever put to work) , thermal energy gradients(IR, and visible light), the sun’s energy, day/night cycles for example.
Fairly much all of life exploits energy gradients, amongst it, part of it
Probably spawned life (abiogenesis), and drove evolution.
So, if I thought outside my electrified, ideological view of life, I might return for a moment to organic life.
Sever the umbilical cord, the grid, the gadgets etc, remind myself of the switch flickers paradise, the mirage.
Reminding myself there is another grid, that’s organic, riding the thermal gradients of past and present, and those gradients over time embedded order, structure. I’m thinkng Prigogene, maybe, without looking it up. Dissipative structures.
Could do that I suppose.
Or could just put a price on electricity that made people less inclined to waste it.
Or could just generate it using hydrogen bombs.
More seriously, asking people not to use electricity is like asking them not to use the sewer system. Alternatives exist, but are not desirable.
mollwollfumble said:
mollwollfumble said:
The Rev Dodgson said:Could do that I suppose.
Or could just put a price on electricity that made people less inclined to waste it.
Or could just generate it using hydrogen bombs.
More seriously, asking people not to use electricity is like asking them not to use the sewer system. Alternatives exist, but are not desirable.
I think you’ll find that I didn’t suggest that people should be asked not to use electricity.
I suggested that it should be priced to discourage wastage, which implies that people will continue to use it.
All that is required is that the price of electricity should recognise all costs in generating and delivering it, including the best estimate of future costs resulting from mining, climate change, long term waste storage, and the like.
Failure to do that does not make any sense at all.
The Rev Dodgson said:
All that is required is that the price of electricity should recognise all costs in generating and delivering it, including the best estimate of future costs resulting from mining, climate change, long term waste storage, and the like.
You left out “…and provide sufficient return to energy-company shareholders as to safeguard the executives’ bonuses”.
captain_spalding said:
The Rev Dodgson said:All that is required is that the price of electricity should recognise all costs in generating and delivering it, including the best estimate of future costs resulting from mining, climate change, long term waste storage, and the like.
You left out “…and provide sufficient return to energy-company shareholders as to safeguard the executives’ bonuses”.
That’s part of the cost of generating and delivering.
The Rev Dodgson said:
captain_spalding said:
The Rev Dodgson said:All that is required is that the price of electricity should recognise all costs in generating and delivering it, including the best estimate of future costs resulting from mining, climate change, long term waste storage, and the like.
You left out “…and provide sufficient return to energy-company shareholders as to safeguard the executives’ bonuses”.
That’s part of the cost of generating and delivering.
And the part which is subject entirely to the narcissistic whims of the executive caste.
Here’s some more of my favourite pics of Barnaby holding things that look smarter than he does:
captain_spalding said:
Here’s some more of my favourite pics of Barnaby holding things that look smarter than he does:
That’s when they first became suspicious that he might be a kiwi.
captain_spalding said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
captain_spalding said:You left out “…and provide sufficient return to energy-company shareholders as to safeguard the executives’ bonuses”.
That’s part of the cost of generating and delivering.
And the part which is subject entirely to the narcissistic whims of the executive caste.
There is an article in the ABC opinion pages on the breakdown of electricity costs and the cause of high prices.
AwesomeO said:
captain_spalding said:
The Rev Dodgson said:That’s part of the cost of generating and delivering.
And the part which is subject entirely to the narcissistic whims of the executive caste.
There is an article in the ABC opinion pages on the breakdown of electricity costs and the cause of high prices.
I’d rather have one computer that does all the billing for all of Australia, not hundreds of these billing companies with all their bloat costs
Chew a cigar on that one fat greddy CEO’s.
>Or could just put a price on electricity that made people less inclined to waste it.
yes, I was thinking that’d be quite expensive if present climate dysruption (the total of, including recent history), and loss of species diversity and habitat etc were factored into costs.
anyway, my point earlier was organic life is an energy conversion and transport system.
and, that it’s possible to say after electricity (grid power dominance), organic life would likely persist, doing as it always has done.
my home is powered by 100 percent wishful thinking