must be a lot of this at work, day-to-day for fairly much everybody

ranging from benign to nasty BS.

so, if you had to guess, how much of the order (social forces) of ‘civilization’ as maintained by, variously, knowledge patches, bullshit that does the job?

I’m sorry I don’t understant what a “knowledge patch” is. Could you expand, please?

I have no idea what you are talking about trans.

Michael V said:

I’m sorry I don’t understant what a “knowledge patch” is. Could you expand, please?

idea, view, an understanding, a notion, a device even, that substitutes for a different and possibly more complete understanding.

that sort of thing

just uncertainties alone of the next few moments, hours, days, weeks, requires them i’d expect, but too of the physical world, social world, or if you like start with economy of mind, them having limited resources, to variously allocate.

Nup, still doesn’t make any sense.

buffy said:

Nup, still doesn’t make any sense.

do people make up shit because they can’t be arsed learning the real thing and does this help/hinder them in society. maybe.

:-)

buffy said:

Nup, still doesn’t make any sense.

okay

I simplify

somehow you get by on incomplete information (about self, and world around), which is the same as saying an incomplete understanding.

fair assumption that above, and generalizable to all individuals of the species.

somehow minds patch incomplete understandings (fairly safe assumption too).

so, it’s tricks of mind, and offers of culture, for that.

transition said:

buffy said:

Nup, still doesn’t make any sense.

okay

I simplify

somehow you get by on incomplete information (about self, and world around), which is the same as saying an incomplete understanding.

fair assumption that above, and generalizable to all individuals of the species.

somehow minds patch incomplete understandings (fairly safe assumption too).

so, it’s tricks of mind, and offers of culture, for that.

I suggest you need to look up the definition of ‘simplify”.

buffy said:

transition said:

buffy said:

Nup, still doesn’t make any sense.

okay

I simplify

somehow you get by on incomplete information (about self, and world around), which is the same as saying an incomplete understanding.

fair assumption that above, and generalizable to all individuals of the species.

somehow minds patch incomplete understandings (fairly safe assumption too).

so, it’s tricks of mind, and offers of culture, for that.

I suggest you need to look up the definition of ‘simplify”.

Yes far too long and liberally intermingled with unrelated words.

buffy said:

transition said:

buffy said:

Nup, still doesn’t make any sense.

okay

I simplify

somehow you get by on incomplete information (about self, and world around), which is the same as saying an incomplete understanding.

fair assumption that above, and generalizable to all individuals of the species.

somehow minds patch incomplete understandings (fairly safe assumption too).

so, it’s tricks of mind, and offers of culture, for that.

I suggest you need to look up the definition of ‘simplify”.

:) it tried, if I simplified it any further it would have meant something else.

transition said:

must be a lot of this at work, day-to-day for fairly much everybody

ranging from benign to nasty BS.

so, if you had to guess, how much of the order (social forces) of ‘civilization’ as maintained by, variously, knowledge patches, bullshit that does the job?

Unlike other forumites, I understand perfectly. You see, I worked for CSIRO. It’s not an easy question to answer.

Perhaps if I had watched more of the TV show “Adam ruins everything” I could give a better answer. I’ll think about it.

mollwollfumble said:

transition said:

must be a lot of this at work, day-to-day for fairly much everybody

ranging from benign to nasty BS.

so, if you had to guess, how much of the order (social forces) of ‘civilization’ as maintained by, variously, knowledge patches, bullshit that does the job?

Unlike other forumites, I understand perfectly. You see, I worked for CSIRO. It’s not an easy question to answer.

Perhaps if I had watched more of the TV show “Adam ruins everything” I could give a better answer. I’ll think about it.

To start the analysis, let’s split bullshit into different categories:

• pure fabrication
• half truth
• make work (genuine work whose results are never used, such as filing)
• overcoming Murphy’s Law

Let’s split “social forces of civilization” into different categories as well:

• politics
• media
• internet
• social interactions at work
• advertising
• construction and demolition
• farming, mining and transport
• family and friends

Then it comes down to checking each pair in turn, starting with “how much of politics is pure fabrication?”

mollwollfumble said:

mollwollfumble said:

transition said:

must be a lot of this at work, day-to-day for fairly much everybody

ranging from benign to nasty BS.

so, if you had to guess, how much of the order (social forces) of ‘civilization’ as maintained by, variously, knowledge patches, bullshit that does the job?

Unlike other forumites, I understand perfectly. You see, I worked for CSIRO. It’s not an easy question to answer.

Perhaps if I had watched more of the TV show “Adam ruins everything” I could give a better answer. I’ll think about it.

To start the analysis, let’s split bullshit into different categories:

• pure fabrication
• half truth
• make work (genuine work whose results are never used, such as filing)
• overcoming Murphy’s Law

Let’s split “social forces of civilization” into different categories as well:

• politics
• media
• internet
• social interactions at work
• advertising
• construction and demolition
• farming, mining and transport
• family and friends

Then it comes down to checking each pair in turn, starting with “how much of politics is pure fabrication?”

I think it is really nice that you two have found each other.

apparently “patch someone through” = “allow someone speaking to you on a phone or radio to speak to someone else”

so knowledge patch must be something you can provide that passes knowledge through to someone else

SCIENCE said:

apparently “patch someone through” = “allow someone speaking to you on a phone or radio to speak to someone else”

so knowledge patch must be something you can provide that passes knowledge through to someone else

try computer program patch, or computer operating system patch, for a modern example of the idea. It nearly gets there.

religion’s always offered answers, or explanations, to patch holes in knowledge/understanding, of unknowns, and unknowables. A way of reconciling uncertainties too, related, or softening them.

more generally true of ideology probably. Which could be one single, or a collection of appealing ideas, views, notions, shared inclinations, extending to distractions and entertainments, call them miniature ideologies, perhaps where they substitute for a more detailed understanding, or another understanding.

transition said:

SCIENCE said:

apparently “patch someone through” = “allow someone speaking to you on a phone or radio to speak to someone else”

so knowledge patch must be something you can provide that passes knowledge through to someone else

try computer program patch, or computer operating system patch, for a modern example of the idea. It nearly gets there.

Computer program patches just fix up poor initial coding.

• Computer program patches just fix up poor initial coding.

Or to provide additional functionality…

furious said:

• Computer program patches just fix up poor initial coding.

Or to provide additional functionality…

Software patches tend to be written in a rush without any quality control. They usually introduce more bugs than they fix.

• Software patches tend to be written in a rush without any quality control. They usually introduce more bugs than they fix.

This is commonly referred to as an anecdote…

I’ll give you an example of a knowledge patch.

I wanted to know the evaporation rate from an algae farm.

So I used a formula that someone had derived by recording how much water they had to add to their backyard swimming pool in order to compensate for evaporation.

But an algae farm isn’t a backyard swimming pool.

mollwollfumble said:

I’ll give you an example of a knowledge patch.

I wanted to know the evaporation rate from an algae farm.

So I used a formula that someone had derived by recording how much water they had to add to their backyard swimming pool in order to compensate for evaporation.

But an algae farm isn’t a backyard swimming pool.

That’s more of a SWAG – scientific wild arsed guess. Engineers love them :)

mollwollfumble said:

I’ll give you an example of a knowledge patch.

I wanted to know the evaporation rate from an algae farm.

So I used a formula that someone had derived by recording how much water they had to add to their backyard swimming pool in order to compensate for evaporation.

But an algae farm isn’t a backyard swimming pool.

How did you go with that? Surely the BOM might have had better records?

party_pants said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’ll give you an example of a knowledge patch.

I wanted to know the evaporation rate from an algae farm.

So I used a formula that someone had derived by recording how much water they had to add to their backyard swimming pool in order to compensate for evaporation.

But an algae farm isn’t a backyard swimming pool.

How did you go with that? Surely the BOM might have had better records?

LOL. No, they didn’t. Overall in my work I estimated evaporation four times, using in total four radically different and incompatible methods ranging the overly complicated to the ridiculously simple. Why different? Different situations:

• algae farm
• aircraft surface in flight
• building surface materials – concrete, brick, time, glass
• crevices in aluminium

fairly much what minds do, they patch knowledge/understanding.

same can be said of intelligence, and even internal mental states in their own ways.

transition said:

fairly much what minds do, they patch knowledge/understanding.

same can be said of intelligence, and even internal mental states in their own ways.

> Same can be said of intelligence.

I agree. Choosing the unoptimal solution to band-aid a problem in a quick and nasty fix.

sibeen said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’ll give you an example of a knowledge patch.

I wanted to know the evaporation rate from an algae farm.

So I used a formula that someone had derived by recording how much water they had to add to their backyard swimming pool in order to compensate for evaporation.

But an algae farm isn’t a backyard swimming pool.

That’s more of a SWAG – scientific wild arsed guess. Engineers love them :)

Well at least they recognise that they are SWAGs :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

sibeen said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’ll give you an example of a knowledge patch.

I wanted to know the evaporation rate from an algae farm.

So I used a formula that someone had derived by recording how much water they had to add to their backyard swimming pool in order to compensate for evaporation.

But an algae farm isn’t a backyard swimming pool.

That’s more of a SWAG – scientific wild arsed guess. Engineers love them :)

Well at least they recognise that they are SWAGs :)

“Structural engineering is the art of molding materials we don’t wholly understand, into shapes we can’t fully analyze, so as to withstand forces we can’t really assess, in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.”

Or in transitionese, engineering is the art of applying knowledge patches safely.

The Rev Dodgson said:

“Structural engineering is the art of molding materials we don’t wholly understand, into shapes we can’t fully analyze, so as to withstand forces we can’t really assess, in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.”

Or in transitionese, engineering is the art of applying knowledge patches safely.

That’s beautiful. So beautiful it brings a tear to my eye.

Is there an extra codicil for finance? Such as “under or over budget”?

sibeen said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’ll give you an example of a knowledge patch.

I wanted to know the evaporation rate from an algae farm.

So I used a formula that someone had derived by recording how much water they had to add to their backyard swimming pool in order to compensate for evaporation.

But an algae farm isn’t a backyard swimming pool.

That’s more of a SWAG – scientific wild arsed guess. Engineers love them :)

I thought that could be classed as a resonable assumption. All science is based on assumptions. Mostly they are reasonable.

The Rev Dodgson said:

“Structural engineering is the art of molding materials we don’t wholly understand, into shapes we can’t fully analyze, so as to withstand forces we can’t really assess, in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.”

Or in transitionese, engineering is the art of applying knowledge patches safely.

I wonder how much of structural engineering is “we’ll do it this way because that’s the way we did it before” or, to put it another way, “TLAR design” where TLAR stands for “That Looks About Right”.

I’ll give a few examples:

Cleat details tend to be designed on the TLAR principle, rather than full calculation.
With only one exception, tallest skyscrapers are fixed at 100 +- 10 storeys, because that’s what’s been done before.
Sydney Harbour Bridge. If it was built using full calculation then it would look very different.
Sydney Opera House. Arup didn’t know how to design the roof as a shell so designed it as a cantilever.

Anyway, the ute’s been collected from the Surf Life Saving Club’s car park and returned to its owner. The table and chairs are back where they should be, under the front awning. Nobody pinched anything from the ute during the night. And I have some dinner party washing up to do in a while, when I can be bothered…

Sorry.

:(

My brother is a Civil Engineer (dunno what the new title might be, that’s what his degree is). I have watched him do drawings for and overpass on a highway. And believe me, it was to the last 2mm.

He presently works designing those huge drill thingys that they do underground roads and traintracks and things with.

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

“Structural engineering is the art of molding materials we don’t wholly understand, into shapes we can’t fully analyze, so as to withstand forces we can’t really assess, in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.”

Or in transitionese, engineering is the art of applying knowledge patches safely.

I wonder how much of structural engineering is “we’ll do it this way because that’s the way we did it before” or, to put it another way, “TLAR design” where TLAR stands for “That Looks About Right”.

I’ll give a few examples:

Cleat details tend to be designed on the TLAR principle, rather than full calculation.
With only one exception, tallest skyscrapers are fixed at 100 +- 10 storeys, because that’s what’s been done before.
Sydney Harbour Bridge. If it was built using full calculation then it would look very different.
Sydney Opera House. Arup didn’t know how to design the roof as a shell so designed it as a cantilever.

I’d say almost all of it :)

My favourite example is Galileo’s beam bending theory continuing to be used for 100’s of years, even though it was obviously wrong, and even after first Parent, then Euler provided a corrected version.

Are you sure about the Opera House though? (Or is that story a knowledge patch?)

buffy said:

My brother is a Civil Engineer (dunno what the new title might be, that’s what his degree is). I have watched him do drawings for and overpass on a highway. And believe me, it was to the last 2mm.

He presently works designing those huge drill thingys that they do underground roads and traintracks and things with.

Sure, the calculations are precise, but (for many aspects) they are not very accurate.

transition said:

must be a lot of this at work, day-to-day for fairly much everybody

ranging from benign to nasty BS.

so, if you had to guess, how much of the order (social forces) of ‘civilization’ as maintained by, variously, knowledge patches, bullshit that does the job?

What I got out of it is
Accumulative & Evolving Knowledge

Someone makes a statement or asks a question and each person that comes along
can add to, (build upon) correct, or discounts all or part of that which came before,
…pretty much what we all do every day in every way…
Even language evolves over time, or for that matter, what organisms do via mutation.

Or you can think of as the children’s story telling game, wherein someone chooses a subject
and each kid in turn adds a sentence until the story as a whole can take some unexpected
and extraordinary directions.

As mentioned above, in science when someone comes up with a theory,
and over time it’s developed and ultimately proven (or disproven) ultimately adding to
the general knowledge.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

“Structural engineering is the art of molding materials we don’t wholly understand, into shapes we can’t fully analyze, so as to withstand forces we can’t really assess, in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance.”

Or in transitionese, engineering is the art of applying knowledge patches safely.

I wonder how much of structural engineering is “we’ll do it this way because that’s the way we did it before” or, to put it another way, “TLAR design” where TLAR stands for “That Looks About Right”.

I’ll give a few examples:

Cleat details tend to be designed on the TLAR principle, rather than full calculation.
With only one exception, tallest skyscrapers are fixed at 100 +- 10 storeys, because that’s what’s been done before.
Sydney Harbour Bridge. If it was built using full calculation then it would look very different.
Sydney Opera House. Arup didn’t know how to design the roof as a shell so designed it as a cantilever.

I’d say almost all of it :)

My favourite example is Galileo’s beam bending theory continuing to be used for 100’s of years, even though it was obviously wrong, and even after first Parent, then Euler provided a corrected version.

Are you sure about the Opera House though? (Or is that story a knowledge patch?)

Actually, not sure of that story. Am sure that Arup’s previous concrete experience was limited to column and slab concrete buildings. Am also sure that they designed the roof to be far too strong. The best equations for shell design at that time were those of Timoshenko “Theory of plates and shells”, 1940. The original award-winning design by Utson owed a lot to the TWA building, designed by architect Eero Saarinen.

Dang it Rev, you’ve caught me out, my memory doesn’t match what I can find on the web. Anyway, as a Civil Engineering student at the time thopera-‘ouse was being built, I was far from happy with what Arup was doing.

this is the best thread ever

chuckle

What about the complexity of society and the requirement that some people’s job are to interpret this complexity but it all amounts to mostly bullshit to maintain the status quo, jobs that are often rewarded highly via a wage and prestige, if they ceased to exist most people wouldn’t even notice.

Cymek said:

What about the complexity of society and the requirement that some people’s job are to interpret this complexity but it all amounts to mostly bullshit to maintain the status quo, jobs that are often rewarded highly via a wage and prestige, if they ceased to exist most people wouldn’t even notice.

That’s a good question. By how much could the workforce decline without significantly affecting production?

Almost all of “management” for a start. Almost all of politics. What other jobs are “mostly bullshit”?

mollwollfumble said:

Cymek said:

What about the complexity of society and the requirement that some people’s job are to interpret this complexity but it all amounts to mostly bullshit to maintain the status quo, jobs that are often rewarded highly via a wage and prestige, if they ceased to exist most people wouldn’t even notice.

That’s a good question. By how much could the workforce decline without significantly affecting production?

Almost all of “management” for a start. Almost all of politics. What other jobs are “mostly bullshit”?

Stock market, a artificial reality based on rumour

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

Cymek said:

What about the complexity of society and the requirement that some people’s job are to interpret this complexity but it all amounts to mostly bullshit to maintain the status quo, jobs that are often rewarded highly via a wage and prestige, if they ceased to exist most people wouldn’t even notice.

That’s a good question. By how much could the workforce decline without significantly affecting production?

Almost all of “management” for a start. Almost all of politics. What other jobs are “mostly bullshit”?

Stock market, a artificial reality based on rumour

My job is little more than paper shuffling, filling out forms and statistics, I work hard but its not particularly fulfilling, it require skill but a skill based on the complexity of bureaucracy and not useful in a post-apocalypse world

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

That’s a good question. By how much could the workforce decline without significantly affecting production?

Almost all of “management” for a start. Almost all of politics. What other jobs are “mostly bullshit”?

Stock market, a artificial reality based on rumour

My job is little more than paper shuffling, filling out forms and statistics, I work hard but its not particularly fulfilling, it require skill but a skill based on the complexity of bureaucracy and not useful in a post-apocalypse world

Just imagine my frustration of knowing what to do and how to survive an apocalypse, but with no imminent apocalypse. You lucky bastard!

PermeateFree said:

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

Stock market, a artificial reality based on rumour

My job is little more than paper shuffling, filling out forms and statistics, I work hard but its not particularly fulfilling, it require skill but a skill based on the complexity of bureaucracy and not useful in a post-apocalypse world

Just imagine my frustration of knowing what to do and how to survive an apocalypse, but with no imminent apocalypse. You lucky bastard!

Heh!

:)

Michael V said:

PermeateFree said:

Cymek said:

My job is little more than paper shuffling, filling out forms and statistics, I work hard but its not particularly fulfilling, it require skill but a skill based on the complexity of bureaucracy and not useful in a post-apocalypse world

Just imagine my frustration of knowing what to do and how to survive an apocalypse, but with no imminent apocalypse. You lucky bastard!

Heh!

:)

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

That’s a good question. By how much could the workforce decline without significantly affecting production?

Almost all of “management” for a start. Almost all of politics. What other jobs are “mostly bullshit”?

Stock market, a artificial reality based on rumour

My job is little more than paper shuffling, filling out forms and statistics, I work hard but its not particularly fulfilling, it require skill but a skill based on the complexity of bureaucracy and not useful in a post-apocalypse world

Can you make fire?

Peak Warming Man said:

Cymek said:

Cymek said:

Stock market, a artificial reality based on rumour

My job is little more than paper shuffling, filling out forms and statistics, I work hard but its not particularly fulfilling, it require skill but a skill based on the complexity of bureaucracy and not useful in a post-apocalypse world

Can you make fire?

Yes

Cymek said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Cymek said:

My job is little more than paper shuffling, filling out forms and statistics, I work hard but its not particularly fulfilling, it require skill but a skill based on the complexity of bureaucracy and not useful in a post-apocalypse world

Can you make fire?

Yes

I have played Fallout 3 and 4, I would do ok.

Cymek said:

What about the complexity of society and the requirement that some people’s job are to interpret this complexity but it all amounts to mostly bullshit to maintain the status quo, jobs that are often rewarded highly via a wage and prestige, if they ceased to exist most people wouldn’t even notice.

CONGRATULATIONS!

You’ve just summed-up
the entire TRUMP Administration
(…or rather, the Lack of administration.)