thinking about the birth of Jesus, his death and resurrection.
our culture has laws that prohibit killing of the living, but only the living.
what of the unconceived, and the dead?
fair game?
transition said:
thinking about the birth of Jesus, his death and resurrection.our culture has laws that prohibit killing of the living, but only the living.
what of the unconceived, and the dead?
fair game?
Is this about abortion?
I think if we are going to discuss this you need to tell us how you can kill something that isn’t alive, or does not yet exist.
Also what does the Taliban have to do with it, and what does the execution of a political activist 2000 years ago have to do with it?
sarahs mum said:
transition said:
thinking about the birth of Jesus, his death and resurrection.our culture has laws that prohibit killing of the living, but only the living.
what of the unconceived, and the dead?
fair game?
Is this about abortion?
It may be about my comment in an earlier thread that desecration of a graveyard is a victimless crime.
And about “There is a darker example of birth control in the Bible, and it appears in Numbers 5. … The one Bible story that some read as anti-contraception is that of Onan, who withdraws before ejaculating and is then killed by God as a punishment him for spilling his seed on the ground.”
If we kill a p-zombie should we call the p-lice?
our culture has laws that prohibit tampering with the dead.. in any way.
Ian said:
Only if you can be p-lite.
If we kill a p-zombie should we call the p-lice?
Michael V said:
Ian said:Only if you can be p-lite.
If we kill a p-zombie should we call the p-lice?
p-sof
Arts said:
our culture has laws that prohibit tampering with the dead.. in any way.
Yes, so it is a crime because it’s against the law.
But it isn’t victimless. The victims are everybody who is distressed by the action, be they near relatives, or anybody who has a strong belief that the dead should not be tampered with.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Arts said:
our culture has laws that prohibit tampering with the dead.. in any way.
Yes, so it is a crime because it’s against the law.
But it isn’t victimless. The victims are everybody who is distressed by the action, be they near relatives, or anybody who has a strong belief that the dead should not be tampered with.
so we agree then.
Arts said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Arts said:
our culture has laws that prohibit tampering with the dead.. in any way.
Yes, so it is a crime because it’s against the law.
But it isn’t victimless. The victims are everybody who is distressed by the action, be they near relatives, or anybody who has a strong belief that the dead should not be tampered with.
so we agree then.
Yeah, the victims bit was aimed at mollwoll :)
Ian said:
Michael V said:
Ian said:Only if you can be p-lite.
If we kill a p-zombie should we call the p-lice?p-sof
No, you p-nut.
Michael V said:
Ian said:
Michael V said:
Only if you can be p-lite.p-sof
No, you p-nut.
How about a bit of p-ce between you two?
The Rev Dodgson said:
Michael V said:
Ian said:p-sof
No, you p-nut.
How about a bit of p-ce between you two?
MV, how about a poultice?
Ian said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Michael V said:No, you p-nut.
How about a bit of p-ce between you two?
MV, how about a poultice?
Oh, p-lease.
The Rev Dodgson said:
I think if we are going to discuss this you need to tell us how you can kill something that isn’t alive, or does not yet exist.
the unconceived, and the dead, are concepts, involving categories, the work of minds.
can you kill something of an idea? Absolutely.
does the work of minds around things that don’t physically exist influence the work of minds to do with things that do physically exist. Absolutely.
are you an idea? No question. You’re an idea, and you physically exist.
you’re probably 9/10th idea, an impression.
i’m contemplating the story of Jesus.
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
I think if we are going to discuss this you need to tell us how you can kill something that isn’t alive, or does not yet exist.
the unconceived, and the dead, are concepts, involving categories, the work of minds.
can you kill something of an idea? Absolutely.
does the work of minds around things that don’t physically exist influence the work of minds to do with things that do physically exist. Absolutely.
are you an idea? No question. You’re an idea, and you physically exist.
you’re probably 9/10th idea, an impression.
i’m contemplating the story of Jesus.
That’s probably all it is, a story and not reality.
I suppose you are allowed to kill zombies trying to kill you but if they are just minding their own business leave them alone
Cymek said:
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
I think if we are going to discuss this you need to tell us how you can kill something that isn’t alive, or does not yet exist.
the unconceived, and the dead, are concepts, involving categories, the work of minds.
can you kill something of an idea? Absolutely.
does the work of minds around things that don’t physically exist influence the work of minds to do with things that do physically exist. Absolutely.
are you an idea? No question. You’re an idea, and you physically exist.
you’re probably 9/10th idea, an impression.
i’m contemplating the story of Jesus.
That’s probably all it is, a story and not reality.
I suppose you are allowed to kill zombies trying to kill you but if they are just minding their own business leave them alone
In Thief fan missions the zombies shuffle along so slowly you can usually just run away from them.
Cymek said:
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
I think if we are going to discuss this you need to tell us how you can kill something that isn’t alive, or does not yet exist.
the unconceived, and the dead, are concepts, involving categories, the work of minds.
can you kill something of an idea? Absolutely.
does the work of minds around things that don’t physically exist influence the work of minds to do with things that do physically exist. Absolutely.
are you an idea? No question. You’re an idea, and you physically exist.
you’re probably 9/10th idea, an impression.
i’m contemplating the story of Jesus.
That’s probably all it is, a story and not reality.
I suppose you are allowed to kill zombies trying to kill you but if they are just minding their own business leave them alone
Zombies don’t try to kill people. They just want them to join the cult. A bit like 7th dayers I suppose.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Arts said:
our culture has laws that prohibit tampering with the dead.. in any way.
Yes, so it is a crime because it’s against the law.
But it isn’t victimless. The victims are everybody who is distressed by the action, be they near relatives, or anybody who has a strong belief that the dead should not be tampered with.
If you want to define a “crime” as something that has the potential to distress people, then start by making posting on the internet a “crime”.
mollwollfumble said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Arts said:
our culture has laws that prohibit tampering with the dead.. in any way.
Yes, so it is a crime because it’s against the law.
But it isn’t victimless. The victims are everybody who is distressed by the action, be they near relatives, or anybody who has a strong belief that the dead should not be tampered with.
If you want to define a “crime” as something that has the potential to distress people, then start by making posting on the internet a “crime”.
Speaking to anyone….
roughbarked said:
mollwollfumble said:
The Rev Dodgson said:Yes, so it is a crime because it’s against the law.
But it isn’t victimless. The victims are everybody who is distressed by the action, be they near relatives, or anybody who has a strong belief that the dead should not be tampered with.
If you want to define a “crime” as something that has the potential to distress people, then start by making posting on the internet a “crime”.
Speaking to anyone….
Often crimes are overlooked in the name of profit, wrecking the environment is a crime but isn’t treated particularly seriously if you get caught polluting, the same with withholding information about how dangerous something, smoking for example.
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
I think if we are going to discuss this you need to tell us how you can kill something that isn’t alive, or does not yet exist.
the unconceived, and the dead, are concepts, involving categories, the work of minds.
can you kill something of an idea? Absolutely.
does the work of minds around things that don’t physically exist influence the work of minds to do with things that do physically exist. Absolutely.
are you an idea? No question. You’re an idea, and you physically exist.
you’re probably 9/10th idea, an impression.
i’m contemplating the story of Jesus.
In that case a seems a little strange to introduce the discussion with a question related to current laws on killing living people.
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
I think if we are going to discuss this you need to tell us how you can kill something that isn’t alive, or does not yet exist.
the unconceived, and the dead, are concepts, involving categories, the work of minds.
can you kill something of an idea? Absolutely.
does the work of minds around things that don’t physically exist influence the work of minds to do with things that do physically exist. Absolutely.
are you an idea? No question. You’re an idea, and you physically exist.
you’re probably 9/10th idea, an impression.
i’m contemplating the story of Jesus.
In that case a seems a little strange to introduce the discussion with a question related to current laws on killing living people.
yeah, well, maybe there’s a dark paradox in the livings’ hostility toward unliving.
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:the unconceived, and the dead, are concepts, involving categories, the work of minds.
can you kill something of an idea? Absolutely.
does the work of minds around things that don’t physically exist influence the work of minds to do with things that do physically exist. Absolutely.
are you an idea? No question. You’re an idea, and you physically exist.
you’re probably 9/10th idea, an impression.
i’m contemplating the story of Jesus.
In that case a seems a little strange to introduce the discussion with a question related to current laws on killing living people.
yeah, well, maybe there’s a dark paradox in the livings’ hostility toward unliving.
Whose unliving that people are hostile towards ?
Jesus scored it big time when he rose from the dead
>Whose unliving that people are hostile towards ?
Jesus.
transition said:
>Whose unliving that people are hostile towards ?Jesus.
Isn’t that from the competition, which is expected.
Are people more hostile towards people that push the Jesus barrow than the man himself.
transition said:
>Whose unliving that people are hostile towards ?Jesus.
When I hear talk of Jesus I reach for my water pistol.
Then I spray him in the face and say, “Walk on that, Mr Messiah!”
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:the unconceived, and the dead, are concepts, involving categories, the work of minds.
can you kill something of an idea? Absolutely.
does the work of minds around things that don’t physically exist influence the work of minds to do with things that do physically exist. Absolutely.
are you an idea? No question. You’re an idea, and you physically exist.
you’re probably 9/10th idea, an impression.
i’m contemplating the story of Jesus.
In that case a seems a little strange to introduce the discussion with a question related to current laws on killing living people.
yeah, well, maybe there’s a dark paradox in the livings’ hostility toward unliving.
What hostility is that?
transition said:
>Whose unliving that people are hostile towards ?Jesus.
So are you suggesting that hostility towards Jesus should be illegal?
What about hostility towards Mohammed?
Or Hades?
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:
>Whose unliving that people are hostile towards ?Jesus.
So are you suggesting that hostility towards Jesus should be illegal?
What about hostility towards Mohammed?
Or Hades?
Be all inclusive. Hostility towards all religion.
Tamb said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
transition said:
>Whose unliving that people are hostile towards ?Jesus.
So are you suggesting that hostility towards Jesus should be illegal?
What about hostility towards Mohammed?
Or Hades?
Be all inclusive. Hostility towards all religion.
People get offended when their own religion is insulted but are perfectly fine to ridicule the competition and even different branches of the same religion, can’t complain really can they.
Cymek said:
Tamb said:
The Rev Dodgson said:So are you suggesting that hostility towards Jesus should be illegal?
What about hostility towards Mohammed?
Or Hades?
Be all inclusive. Hostility towards all religion.
People get offended when their own religion is insulted but are perfectly fine to ridicule the competition and even different branches of the same religion, can’t complain really can they.
Logically no. In practice YES!
>What hostility is that?
you avoid your own premature death every moment.
your mind, your consciousness works to that end, part of homeostasis.
the question is, what happens to that hostility elsewhere, regards the unconceived, and dead?
makes me think of the story of Jesus.
you may think you don’t aggressively avoid a premature death, but doubtful that’s true.
transition said:
you may think you don’t aggressively avoid a premature death, but doubtful that’s true.
Why do you doubt it?
transition said:
>What hostility is that?you avoid your own premature death every moment.
your mind, your consciousness works to that end, part of homeostasis.
the question is, what happens to that hostility elsewhere, regards the unconceived, and dead?
makes me think of the story of Jesus.
you may think you don’t aggressively avoid a premature death, but doubtful that’s true.
I suppose the fact we have no idea what happens after death means we are all afraid of the nothingness when we die.
Religion exploits this fear and makes up an afterlife and a whole bunch of rules on how to get there.
Jesus was the living dead but you are also talking about dead dead
transition said:
>What hostility is that?you avoid your own premature death every moment.
your mind, your consciousness works to that end, part of homeostasis.
the question is, what happens to that hostility elsewhere, regards the unconceived, and dead?
makes me think of the story of Jesus.
you may think you don’t aggressively avoid a premature death, but doubtful that’s true.
What would be the point of being born if you don’t avoid a premature death
Surely even just drinking and eating is avoiding premature death,
Most people are hostile towards the idea of premature death but I can’t see how that could mean they’re hostile towards dead people.
Cymek said:
transition said:
>What hostility is that?you avoid your own premature death every moment.
your mind, your consciousness works to that end, part of homeostasis.
the question is, what happens to that hostility elsewhere, regards the unconceived, and dead?
makes me think of the story of Jesus.
you may think you don’t aggressively avoid a premature death, but doubtful that’s true.
What would be the point of being born if you don’t avoid a premature death
Surely even just drinking and eating is avoiding premature death,
But not aggressively?
Bubblecar said:
Most people are hostile towards the idea of premature death but I can’t see how that could mean they’re hostile towards dead people.
Also I’d suggest that most people spend the great majority of their time not thinking about a premature death.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:
transition said:
>What hostility is that?you avoid your own premature death every moment.
your mind, your consciousness works to that end, part of homeostasis.
the question is, what happens to that hostility elsewhere, regards the unconceived, and dead?
makes me think of the story of Jesus.
you may think you don’t aggressively avoid a premature death, but doubtful that’s true.
What would be the point of being born if you don’t avoid a premature death
Surely even just drinking and eating is avoiding premature death,
But not aggressively?
What would be aggressively avoid premature death, medicine ?
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
Most people are hostile towards the idea of premature death but I can’t see how that could mean they’re hostile towards dead people.Also I’d suggest that most people spend the great majority of their time not thinking about a premature death.
and those two things as said, by car then rev, they are the questions.
it’s where the dark paradox resides, and I see something in the story of Jesus, touching on that.
I think it goes to some differences between our culture, and some others.
If technology developed were everyone could live indefinitely in some form who would knock in back on the hope some sort of afterlife exists.
transition said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
Most people are hostile towards the idea of premature death but I can’t see how that could mean they’re hostile towards dead people.Also I’d suggest that most people spend the great majority of their time not thinking about a premature death.
and those two things as said, by car then rev, they are the questions.
it’s where the dark paradox resides, and I see something in the story of Jesus, touching on that.
I think it goes to some differences between our culture, and some others.
Do people not think about premature death because it scares them or they are just busy living.
I’m not scared of death its a universal constant everything dies in the end
Maybe people are angry with Jesus as he didn’t die but came back and wasn’t a mindless brain eating zombie, preferential treatment and all that
Sometimes a word has many meanings depending on context.
So when Jesus said ‘let the dead bury the dead’ we see two meanings for the dead and dead.
The first meaning dead is like in ‘you are dead to me’ saying, the meaning of the second ‘dead’ is the literal meaning.
Carry on.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
Most people are hostile towards the idea of premature death but I can’t see how that could mean they’re hostile towards dead people.Also I’d suggest that most people spend the great majority of their time not thinking about a premature death.
A great majority perhaps, but even 5% or 1% of time can add up to a great deal.
Dagnabbit, lost most of post in a crash. Try again.
transition said:
>What hostility is that?you avoid your own premature death every moment.
your mind, your consciousness works to that end, part of homeostasis.
the question is, what happens to that hostility elsewhere, regards the unconceived, and dead?
makes me think of the story of Jesus.
you may think you don’t aggressively avoid a premature death, but doubtful that’s true.
LOL yes, the joke’s on me. Even at times when I think “it wouldn’t be too bad if the truck ran over me”, I still aggressively avoid the truck.
As for the story of Jesus, it can be read as the story of someone who seeks political power by defrauding others, which fails when he begins to believe his own propaganda. So I don’t see any connection here.
mollwollfumble said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Bubblecar said:
Most people are hostile towards the idea of premature death but I can’t see how that could mean they’re hostile towards dead people.Also I’d suggest that most people spend the great majority of their time not thinking about a premature death.
A great majority perhaps, but even 5% or 1% of time can add up to a great deal.
Dagnabbit, lost most of post in a crash. Try again.
transition said:
>What hostility is that?you avoid your own premature death every moment.
your mind, your consciousness works to that end, part of homeostasis.
the question is, what happens to that hostility elsewhere, regards the unconceived, and dead?
makes me think of the story of Jesus.
you may think you don’t aggressively avoid a premature death, but doubtful that’s true.
LOL yes, the joke’s on me. Even at times when I think “it wouldn’t be too bad if the truck ran over me”, I still aggressively avoid the truck.
As for the story of Jesus, it can be read as the story of someone who seeks political power by defrauding others, which fails when he begins to believe his own propaganda. So I don’t see any connection here.
He also had an all powerful dad and knew heaven was real so his death wasn’t as scary as everyone else who didn’t have a parent in high places and this knowledge
Cymek said:
He also had an all powerful dad and knew heaven was real so his death wasn’t as scary as everyone else who didn’t have a parent in high places and this knowledge
This is something that has always puzzled me about the Christian story.
We are told that Jesus lives, and indeed is in daily contact with some people, but we are also told that God Senior “gave” his only Son to save us from our sins.
So how does that work?
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:
He also had an all powerful dad and knew heaven was real so his death wasn’t as scary as everyone else who didn’t have a parent in high places and this knowledge
This is something that has always puzzled me about the Christian story.
We are told that Jesus lives, and indeed is in daily contact with some people, but we are also told that God Senior “gave” his only Son to save us from our sins.
So how does that work?
It doesn’t really does it
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:
He also had an all powerful dad and knew heaven was real so his death wasn’t as scary as everyone else who didn’t have a parent in high places and this knowledge
This is something that has always puzzled me about the Christian story.
We are told that Jesus lives, and indeed is in daily contact with some people, but we are also told that God Senior “gave” his only Son to save us from our sins.
So how does that work?
Dunno, don’t care. But a response might be define “gave”.
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:
He also had an all powerful dad and knew heaven was real so his death wasn’t as scary as everyone else who didn’t have a parent in high places and this knowledge
This is something that has always puzzled me about the Christian story.
We are told that Jesus lives, and indeed is in daily contact with some people, but we are also told that God Senior “gave” his only Son to save us from our sins.
So how does that work?
god’s an indian giver?
AwesomeO said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:
He also had an all powerful dad and knew heaven was real so his death wasn’t as scary as everyone else who didn’t have a parent in high places and this knowledge
This is something that has always puzzled me about the Christian story.
We are told that Jesus lives, and indeed is in daily contact with some people, but we are also told that God Senior “gave” his only Son to save us from our sins.
So how does that work?
Dunno, don’t care. But a response might be define “gave”.
Loaned possibly?
Bogsnorkler said:
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:
He also had an all powerful dad and knew heaven was real so his death wasn’t as scary as everyone else who didn’t have a parent in high places and this knowledge
This is something that has always puzzled me about the Christian story.
We are told that Jesus lives, and indeed is in daily contact with some people, but we are also told that God Senior “gave” his only Son to save us from our sins.
So how does that work?
god’s an indian giver?
Was Jesus an Indian & if so which sort? Curry or teepee?
The Rev Dodgson said:
Cymek said:
He also had an all powerful dad and knew heaven was real so his death wasn’t as scary as everyone else who didn’t have a parent in high places and this knowledge
This is something that has always puzzled me about the Christian story.
We are told that Jesus lives, and indeed is in daily contact with some people, but we are also told that God Senior “gave” his only Son to save us from our sins.
So how does that work?
Jesus did die and was resurrected.
Tamb said:
AwesomeO said:
The Rev Dodgson said:This is something that has always puzzled me about the Christian story.
We are told that Jesus lives, and indeed is in daily contact with some people, but we are also told that God Senior “gave” his only Son to save us from our sins.
So how does that work?
Dunno, don’t care. But a response might be define “gave”.
Loaned possibly?
Which is why he’s hasn’t come back
God to humanity “I lent you my son and he came back broken, not a second time”
Cymek said:
Tamb said:
AwesomeO said:Dunno, don’t care. But a response might be define “gave”.
Loaned possibly?
Which is why he’s hasn’t come back
God to humanity “I lent you my son and he came back broken, not a second time”
He should have sent someone else better suited to 1st century humanity.
anyway, the point was ideology, the state broadly speaking, anticipates your existence before you are born, and your departure at death, so it’s the case that notions and beliefs of the living influence views regards the dead, unconceived (and unborn). Culture outlives the individual.
taliban I used to mean student of physicalism, and more.
I used the example concepts/categories regards that both sides of living to hint at the possibility that even were physicalism were dominant it probably qualifies as ideology, or lending to.
transition said:
taliban I used to mean student of physicalism, and more.
TATE on Taliban only talks about the extremist religious group active in Pakistan.
Is there another source that will give me some idea what you are talking about, or are you saying that there is some sort of equivalence between being a student of_ physicalism and this extremist revolutionary group?
>or are you saying that there is some sort of equivalence between being a student of_ physicalism and this extremist revolutionary group?
if you want to put it that way, yeah, just touched on the idea was all. A contemplation.
transition said:
>or are you saying that there is some sort of equivalence between being a student of_ physicalism and this extremist revolutionary group?if you want to put it that way, yeah, just touched on the idea was all. A contemplation.
I was thinking too, that the story of Jesus is a message that that either side of the living influence the living. This is (or should be) a challenge to physicalism, or materialism if you like, and has corrupted Christianity.
Something along those lines.
transition said:
>or are you saying that there is some sort of equivalence between being a student of_ physicalism and this extremist revolutionary group?if you want to put it that way, yeah, just touched on the idea was all. A contemplation.
OK, I have no problem with contemplations.
Even extremist ones.
transition said:
transition said:
>or are you saying that there is some sort of equivalence between being a student of_ physicalism and this extremist revolutionary group?if you want to put it that way, yeah, just touched on the idea was all. A contemplation.
I was thinking too, that the story of Jesus is a message that that either side of the living influence the living. This is (or should be) a challenge to physicalism, or materialism if you like, and has corrupted Christianity.
Something along those lines.
I totally agree that the dead continue to affect the living, but I’m not sure how the not yet born do.
I don’t think this is a challenge to physicalism at all, (or it shouldn’t be).
I don’t see the point of bringing a specific religious mythology into the discussion, corrupted or not.
>I don’t see the point of bringing a specific religious mythology into the discussion, corrupted or not.
religion, stories from religion influence the culture you live in, even democracy and capitalism, + human nature hasn’t altered in a couple hundred thousand years, + everyone is in the business of patching their knowledge, with belief, hope, so you can try and alienate religion, claim you’re not influences by it, but you are, even when avoiding it.
transition said:
>I don’t see the point of bringing a specific religious mythology into the discussion, corrupted or not.religion, stories from religion influence the culture you live in, even democracy and capitalism, + human nature hasn’t altered in a couple hundred thousand years, + everyone is in the business of patching their knowledge, with belief, hope, so you can try and alienate religion, claim you’re not influences by it, but you are, even when avoiding it.
Perhaps the coming Singularity will do away with religion as we go from human to trans-human and then post-human and no longer believe in superstition and gods
>Perhaps the coming Singularity will do away with religion as we go from human to trans-human and then post-human and no longer believe in superstition and gods.
not sure what you’re hoping for there, a total convergence into areligiosity maybe.
I can’t go to there’s nothing at all instructive at all in stories from religion.
transition said:
>Perhaps the coming Singularity will do away with religion as we go from human to trans-human and then post-human and no longer believe in superstition and gods.not sure what you’re hoping for there, a total convergence into areligiosity maybe.
I can’t go to there’s nothing at all instructive at all in stories from religion.
Nothing really it borders on religious fervour and will be misused if it ever comes to fruition.
I do find it disturbing that much of culture and laws are based on the whims and rules of imaginary beings and those that believe in such things can’t see the absurdity of it all. I see it as a serious flaw in our species and something we need to overcome if we are to progress as a species, mind you I am not sure some atheist people are any better, lots of wars started by non-religious nutters
sorry
Stumpy_seahorse said:
sorry
Your obscure referencing of motor-cycles still makes more sense than most of this thread.
