The conceptual design for the DEMO tokamak was scheduled to be finished last year. Is it finished?

Some relevant articles are:

Waste assessment of European DEMO fusion reactor designs
MR Gilbert, T Eade, C Bachmann, U Fischer… – Fusion Engineering and …, 2017 – Elsevier
Abstract Predicting the amount of waste produced from a fusion power plant is vital to assess
the likely environmental impact, disposal costs, and also to satisfy nuclear regulators.
Inventory simulations are ideally suited to this task because they can be used to evolve in …
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0920379617309717

because waste from fusion power plants is not necessarily negligible

The European DEMO Fusion Reactor: Design Status and Challenges from Balance of Plant Point of View
Abstract—DEMO initial conceptual design studies are being conducted in Europe as part of the European Union Roadmap to Fusion Electricity, which aims to demonstrate the feasibility of electricity produced by nuclear fusion reactors around the middle of this century. The aim of this paper is to provide an overview of the DEMO project, highlighting its main characteristics and challenges in terms of design, integration, and operation. Particular emphasis is given on some important systems of the Balance of Plant (BoP), such as the primary heat transfer systems, the related power conversion systems, and the electrical power plant. The relevance of such systems is due to the need of a continuous reanalysis at any significant design change because of their huge dimensions, technical complexity, and strong impact on design integration, maintenance, and safety.

Note a time slippage here. The “middle of this century” is not 2033, which is the advertised date for startup.

Design Strategy and Recent Design Activity on Japan’s DEMO
, … Special Design Team for Fusion DEMO – Fusion Science and …, 2017 – Taylor & Francis
Abstract The Joint Special Design Team for Fusion DEMO was organized in 2015 to
enhance Japan’s DEMO design activity and coordinate relevant research and development
(R&D) toward DEMO. This paper presents the fundamental concept of DEMO and its key …
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15361055.2017.1364112

Japan’s DEMO is not the same as Europe’s DEMO Or is it?

Materials engineering and design for fusion—Towards DEMO design criteria
M Gorley, E Diegele, S Dudarev, G Pintsuk – Fusion Engineering and …, 2018 – Elsevier
Abstract Future fusion reactors will operate under unprecedented environmental conditions
and will rely on the performance of complex in-vessel components during long term
operation. These new reactors have key operational differences compared to existing …
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0920379618301145

Worldwide Timelines for Fusion Energy
L El-Guebaly – development, 2017 – sites.nationalacademies.org
… DEMO 1st Fusion Power Plant Tokamak, Spherical Tokamak, or Stellarator … 7. G. Federici
et al., “Overview of the design approach and prioritization of R&D activities towards EU DEMO,”
Fusion Engineering and Design 109–111 (2016) 1464-1474

mollwollfumble said:

The conceptual design for the DEMO tokamak was scheduled to be finished last year. Is it finished?

Some relevant articles are:

Waste assessment of European DEMO fusion reactor designs
MR Gilbert, T Eade, C Bachmann, U Fischer… – Fusion Engineering and …, 2017 – Elsevier
Abstract Predicting the amount of waste produced from a fusion power plant is vital to assess
the likely environmental impact, disposal costs, and also to satisfy nuclear regulators.
Inventory simulations are ideally suited to this task because they can be used to evolve in …
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0920379617309717

because waste from fusion power plants is not necessarily negligible

The European DEMO Fusion Reactor: Design Status and Challenges from Balance of Plant Point of View
Abstract—DEMO initial conceptual design studies are being conducted in Europe as part of the European Union Roadmap to Fusion Electricity, which aims to demonstrate the feasibility of electricity produced by nuclear fusion reactors around the middle of this century. The aim of this paper is to provide an overview of the DEMO project, highlighting its main characteristics and challenges in terms of design, integration, and operation. Particular emphasis is given on some important systems of the Balance of Plant (BoP), such as the primary heat transfer systems, the related power conversion systems, and the electrical power plant. The relevance of such systems is due to the need of a continuous reanalysis at any significant design change because of their huge dimensions, technical complexity, and strong impact on design integration, maintenance, and safety.

Note a time slippage here. The “middle of this century” is not 2033, which is the advertised date for startup.

Design Strategy and Recent Design Activity on Japan’s DEMO
, … Special Design Team for Fusion DEMO – Fusion Science and …, 2017 – Taylor & Francis
Abstract The Joint Special Design Team for Fusion DEMO was organized in 2015 to
enhance Japan’s DEMO design activity and coordinate relevant research and development
(R&D) toward DEMO. This paper presents the fundamental concept of DEMO and its key …
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15361055.2017.1364112

Japan’s DEMO is not the same as Europe’s DEMO Or is it?

Materials engineering and design for fusion—Towards DEMO design criteria
M Gorley, E Diegele, S Dudarev, G Pintsuk – Fusion Engineering and …, 2018 – Elsevier
Abstract Future fusion reactors will operate under unprecedented environmental conditions
and will rely on the performance of complex in-vessel components during long term
operation. These new reactors have key operational differences compared to existing …
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0920379618301145

Worldwide Timelines for Fusion Energy
L El-Guebaly – development, 2017 – sites.nationalacademies.org
… DEMO 1st Fusion Power Plant Tokamak, Spherical Tokamak, or Stellarator … 7. G. Federici
et al., “Overview of the design approach and prioritization of R&D activities towards EU DEMO,”
Fusion Engineering and Design 109–111 (2016) 1464-1474

Any technology for which the practical implementation date is more than 5 years away qualifies as ‘fantasy’.

captain_spalding said:

mollwollfumble said:

The conceptual design for the DEMO tokamak was scheduled to be finished last year. Is it finished?

Some relevant articles are:

Waste assessment of European DEMO fusion reactor designs
MR Gilbert, T Eade, C Bachmann, U Fischer… – Fusion Engineering and …, 2017 – Elsevier
Abstract Predicting the amount of waste produced from a fusion power plant is vital to assess
the likely environmental impact, disposal costs, and also to satisfy nuclear regulators.
Inventory simulations are ideally suited to this task because they can be used to evolve in …
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0920379617309717

because waste from fusion power plants is not necessarily negligible

The European DEMO Fusion Reactor: Design Status and Challenges from Balance of Plant Point of View
Abstract—DEMO initial conceptual design studies are being conducted in Europe as part of the European Union Roadmap to Fusion Electricity, which aims to demonstrate the feasibility of electricity produced by nuclear fusion reactors around the middle of this century. The aim of this paper is to provide an overview of the DEMO project, highlighting its main characteristics and challenges in terms of design, integration, and operation. Particular emphasis is given on some important systems of the Balance of Plant (BoP), such as the primary heat transfer systems, the related power conversion systems, and the electrical power plant. The relevance of such systems is due to the need of a continuous reanalysis at any significant design change because of their huge dimensions, technical complexity, and strong impact on design integration, maintenance, and safety.

Note a time slippage here. The “middle of this century” is not 2033, which is the advertised date for startup.

Design Strategy and Recent Design Activity on Japan’s DEMO
, … Special Design Team for Fusion DEMO – Fusion Science and …, 2017 – Taylor & Francis
Abstract The Joint Special Design Team for Fusion DEMO was organized in 2015 to
enhance Japan’s DEMO design activity and coordinate relevant research and development
(R&D) toward DEMO. This paper presents the fundamental concept of DEMO and its key …
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15361055.2017.1364112

Japan’s DEMO is not the same as Europe’s DEMO Or is it?

Materials engineering and design for fusion—Towards DEMO design criteria
M Gorley, E Diegele, S Dudarev, G Pintsuk – Fusion Engineering and …, 2018 – Elsevier
Abstract Future fusion reactors will operate under unprecedented environmental conditions
and will rely on the performance of complex in-vessel components during long term
operation. These new reactors have key operational differences compared to existing …
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0920379618301145

Worldwide Timelines for Fusion Energy
L El-Guebaly – development, 2017 – sites.nationalacademies.org
… DEMO 1st Fusion Power Plant Tokamak, Spherical Tokamak, or Stellarator … 7. G. Federici
et al., “Overview of the design approach and prioritization of R&D activities towards EU DEMO,”
Fusion Engineering and Design 109–111 (2016) 1464-1474

Any technology for which the practical implementation date is more than 5 years away qualifies as ‘fantasy’.

I think we are getting to the point where we have to admit that the technology does not exist to implement the theory.

Peak Warming Man said:

captain_spalding said:

mollwollfumble said:

The conceptual design for the DEMO tokamak was scheduled to be finished last year. Is it finished?

Some relevant articles are:

Waste assessment of European DEMO fusion reactor designs
MR Gilbert, T Eade, C Bachmann, U Fischer… – Fusion Engineering and …, 2017 – Elsevier
Abstract Predicting the amount of waste produced from a fusion power plant is vital to assess
the likely environmental impact, disposal costs, and also to satisfy nuclear regulators.
Inventory simulations are ideally suited to this task because they can be used to evolve in …
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0920379617309717

because waste from fusion power plants is not necessarily negligible

The European DEMO Fusion Reactor: Design Status and Challenges from Balance of Plant Point of View
Abstract—DEMO initial conceptual design studies are being conducted in Europe as part of the European Union Roadmap to Fusion Electricity, which aims to demonstrate the feasibility of electricity produced by nuclear fusion reactors around the middle of this century. The aim of this paper is to provide an overview of the DEMO project, highlighting its main characteristics and challenges in terms of design, integration, and operation. Particular emphasis is given on some important systems of the Balance of Plant (BoP), such as the primary heat transfer systems, the related power conversion systems, and the electrical power plant. The relevance of such systems is due to the need of a continuous reanalysis at any significant design change because of their huge dimensions, technical complexity, and strong impact on design integration, maintenance, and safety.

Note a time slippage here. The “middle of this century” is not 2033, which is the advertised date for startup.

Design Strategy and Recent Design Activity on Japan’s DEMO
, … Special Design Team for Fusion DEMO – Fusion Science and …, 2017 – Taylor & Francis
Abstract The Joint Special Design Team for Fusion DEMO was organized in 2015 to
enhance Japan’s DEMO design activity and coordinate relevant research and development
(R&D) toward DEMO. This paper presents the fundamental concept of DEMO and its key …
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15361055.2017.1364112

Japan’s DEMO is not the same as Europe’s DEMO Or is it?

Materials engineering and design for fusion—Towards DEMO design criteria
M Gorley, E Diegele, S Dudarev, G Pintsuk – Fusion Engineering and …, 2018 – Elsevier
Abstract Future fusion reactors will operate under unprecedented environmental conditions
and will rely on the performance of complex in-vessel components during long term
operation. These new reactors have key operational differences compared to existing …
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0920379618301145

Worldwide Timelines for Fusion Energy
L El-Guebaly – development, 2017 – sites.nationalacademies.org
… DEMO 1st Fusion Power Plant Tokamak, Spherical Tokamak, or Stellarator … 7. G. Federici
et al., “Overview of the design approach and prioritization of R&D activities towards EU DEMO,”
Fusion Engineering and Design 109–111 (2016) 1464-1474

Any technology for which the practical implementation date is more than 5 years away qualifies as ‘fantasy’.

I think we are getting to the point where we have to admit that the technology does not exist to implement the theory.

More money should be put into fission reactor powerplants, including making them ‘foolproof’ safe and the disposal of waste.

Fusion isn’t going to happen, and if it does, it won’t be ‘in time’.

Coal-fired plants are hurting people right now, and contributing significantly to global warming. Nuclear power is, by comparison, vastly more clean and safe.

Why is viable fusion power always decades away at the earliest.
It seems every time we solve a problem more crop up and perhaps it’s something that may work centuries down the track when entirely new materials and technology has been created. I do wonder if perhaps it was thought it would be as easy as fission power plants and now so much time, money and effort has been spent giving up isn’t an option.

Cymek said:

Why is viable fusion power always decades away at the earliest.
It seems every time we solve a problem more crop up and perhaps it’s something that may work centuries down the track when entirely new materials and technology has been created. I do wonder if perhaps it was thought it would be as easy as fission power plants and now so much time, money and effort has been spent giving up isn’t an option.

There’s a book here that I haven’t read yet called “Soonish”. It covers quite a few things that are always decades away.

When it comes to controlled fusion – I can tell you several reasons why it’s taken so long.

1. Without the Russian invention of the Tokamak in 1958 we would have had to give up ages ago. The Tokamak uises the magnetic field generated by the plasma to stabilise the plasma.

2. It was realised quite early that controlled fusion required temperatures three times hotter than the core of the Sun, because of the low plasma density. This isn’t easy.

3. Even after the Tokamak, there were slower instabilities – called edge effects. These needed suppressing and it’s far from clear to me how close we have got to suppressing these edge effects.

4. The latest problem I know of has been carbon. Carbon was used as the walls of fusion reactors because it’s the material with the highest melting point, but what was happening was that because carbon has a low atomic weight it was being eroded by the impact of ions from the plasma. The carbon was replaced by a tungsten-beryllium alloy in 2006. But the tungsten melts.

5. A new method has been installed for venting used plasma to better protect the wall shielding.

6. Alternative fusion devices include:

• cold fusion (Fleischmann–Pons experiment) has been debunked.
• sonofusion likewise.
• Z pinch, the physics principles got absorbed into the tokamak.
• laser inertial confinement, some initial limitations led to the “Hohlraum” in the 1990s at the “National Ignition Facility”. Research was terminated in 2012 at about 1/10 of the conditions necessary for controlled fusion.