Which other species have rules of behaviour, and punish individuals who do not follow them?

Which other species has the most complex system of social behaviour, crime and punishment?

I think bonobos and a couple other related primates do. But what constitutes a crime in primate society?

Oh, and meerkats do. They punish for wandering off or mating with a non-dominant female.

Divine Angel said:

I think bonobos and a couple other related primates do. But what constitutes a crime in primate society?

Oh, and meerkats do. They punish for wandering off or mating with a non-dominant female.

By that the crimes seem to all be about sexual behaviour?

roughbarked said:

Divine Angel said:

I think bonobos and a couple other related primates do. But what constitutes a crime in primate society?

Oh, and meerkats do. They punish for wandering off or mating with a non-dominant female.

By that the crimes seem to all be about sexual behaviour?

I would think most social animals, especially the more intelligent would have rules, regulations, etiquette, etc. that others need to observe or suffer the consequences.

i’ve seen ants attack each other after a chemical warfare attack by humans, reminds me of pissed humans now, come to think of it.

probably a lesson in that above, but seems remote from your question, maybe.

crime is a construction, requires law to understand, and perhaps ethics, one would expect.

variously alienation features in many species i’d guess, deprivation of resources, the help and comforts of the group.

it’s graded though, from mild to severe, from simply just being less desirable company, to potentially unsafe company, to something deserving of confinement, to extreme hostility in which case the example ought be extinguished from existence.

neutrality has a lot going for it, and space is important for that.

and here I should introduce the idea of the lawful space, which is in fact that bigger part of what the law does, it protects the lawful space, which isn’t super defined(imposingly so) for reasons that should be apparent.

.

transition said:

i’ve seen ants attack each other after a chemical warfare attack by humans, reminds me of pissed humans now, come to think of it.

probably a lesson in that above, but seems remote from your question, maybe.

crime is a construction, requires law to understand, and perhaps ethics, one would expect.

variously alienation features in many species i’d guess, deprivation of resources, the help and comforts of the group.

it’s graded though, from mild to severe, from simply just being less desirable company, to potentially unsafe company, to something deserving of confinement, to extreme hostility in which case the example ought be extinguished from existence.

neutrality has a lot going for it, and space is important for that.

and here I should introduce the idea of the lawful space, which is in fact that bigger part of what the law does, it protects the lawful space, which isn’t super defined(imposingly so) for reasons that should be apparent.

.

OK, but let’s not get hung up on the words. By “crime” I just mean behaviour that doesn’t fit the accepted normal behaviour of the group.

PermeateFree said:

roughbarked said:

Divine Angel said:

I think bonobos and a couple other related primates do. But what constitutes a crime in primate society?

Oh, and meerkats do. They punish for wandering off or mating with a non-dominant female.

By that the crimes seem to all be about sexual behaviour?

I would think most social animals, especially the more intelligent would have rules, regulations, etiquette, etc. that others need to observe or suffer the consequences.

I’d think so too.

On the extreme I’m wondering if it might be found in birds rather than mammals.

The Rev Dodgson said:

PermeateFree said:

roughbarked said:

By that the crimes seem to all be about sexual behaviour?

I would think most social animals, especially the more intelligent would have rules, regulations, etiquette, etc. that others need to observe or suffer the consequences.

I’d think so too.

On the extreme I’m wondering if it might be found in birds rather than mammals.

Don’t think so as mammals like wolves, dolphins and of course the higher primates have very complex societies, as do of course many bird species. Even the less intelligent social animals still adopt a high level of tolerance for each other to foster relationships and generally avoid conflict.

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

i’ve seen ants attack each other after a chemical warfare attack by humans, reminds me of pissed humans now, come to think of it.

probably a lesson in that above, but seems remote from your question, maybe.

crime is a construction, requires law to understand, and perhaps ethics, one would expect.

variously alienation features in many species i’d guess, deprivation of resources, the help and comforts of the group.

it’s graded though, from mild to severe, from simply just being less desirable company, to potentially unsafe company, to something deserving of confinement, to extreme hostility in which case the example ought be extinguished from existence.

neutrality has a lot going for it, and space is important for that.

and here I should introduce the idea of the lawful space, which is in fact that bigger part of what the law does, it protects the lawful space, which isn’t super defined(imposingly so) for reasons that should be apparent.

.

OK, but let’s not get hung up on the words. By “crime” I just mean behaviour that doesn’t fit the accepted normal behaviour of the group.

that’s why I introduced the idea of potentially unsafe company, or less desirable company, and alienation from resources.

many humans don’t waste much effort on explanations that involve any conflict (dissonance, if you like), they defer to commonly understood explanations(help of the mob), which can be quite brutal. Like, instead of understanding your thread subject, I could instead start a rumor about you, it might start with something that translates into you’re exploring deviancy.

you’re a deviant, rev :).

;) should’ve made that a wink

The Rev Dodgson said:

Which other species have rules of behaviour, and punish individuals who do not follow them?

A lot. Perhaps most social animals have rules of behaviour and punishment.

Some examples given in these papers (which appear to be well worth reading if you’re interested in this) are
sabre-tooth blennies
bluestreak cleaner wrasse
meerkats
naked mole rats
coral-dwelling gobies
some bees, ants and wasps

There seems to be some disagreement on whether chimpanzees really use punishment, or just react when they personally are wronged.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016953471200002X
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4760192/
https://www.mpg.de/11866358/children-vengeance

Which other species has the most complex system of social behaviour, crime and punishment?

I don’t know

Melbourne police captured on video taking down disability pensioner

John installed a CCTV system at his house in Melbourne’s northern suburbs after it was burgled a few years back.

It was supposed to capture robbers — not police.

But the video it recorded in October 2017 shows a number of Victoria Police officers dragging the disability pensioner into his front yard, where he is pinned to the ground.

more…

>>There seems to be some disagreement on whether chimpanzees really use punishment, or just react when they personally are wronged.<<

Chimps steal and even murder other chips, the latter if a chimp from another group trespasses onto their territory. Chimps are socially very hierarchical and it will depend on who has offended whom, as to who will be punished for any misdemeanor.

Watch a bitch with her pups. The bitch punishes the pups for doing wrong.

Watch some magpies for a while. Definite breaches of rules and punishments in that society.

Chickens get reprimanded quite severely for eating out of pecking order

buffy said:

Watch a bitch with her pups. The bitch punishes the pups for doing wrong.

Watch some magpies for a while. Definite breaches of rules and punishments in that society.

Yeah baby Maggies get a telling off and sometimes a peck by mum or dad and usually submit by lying on the ground

Tau.Neutrino said:

Melbourne police captured on video taking down disability pensioner

John installed a CCTV system at his house in Melbourne’s northern suburbs after it was burgled a few years back.

It was supposed to capture robbers — not police.

But the video it recorded in October 2017 shows a number of Victoria Police officers dragging the disability pensioner into his front yard, where he is pinned to the ground.

more…

Watch a group of police punish a disabled man.

Cymek said:

Chickens get reprimanded quite severely for eating out of pecking order

I would think the rank of an individual in a group is very important, with the most dominant likely to set the rules or at least the accepted standard, plus would likely enforce them.

PermeateFree said:

Cymek said:

Chickens get reprimanded quite severely for eating out of pecking order

I would think the rank of an individual in a group is very important, with the most dominant likely to set the rules or at least the accepted standard, plus would likely enforce them.

I’d imagine it would probably apply to long extinct species such a pack roaming dinosaurs as well, bit hard to confirm though

transition said:

you’re a deviant, rev :).

Why thankyou sir :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

you’re a deviant, rev :).

Why thankyou sir :)

which has me wondering, if humans are the only creatures that study behavioral influences, and behavior controls.

I think not.

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

you’re a deviant, rev :).

Why thankyou sir :)

which has me wondering, if humans are the only creatures that study behavioral influences, and behavior controls.

I think not.

Well we can tell ourselves that we are more systematic about it than the other animals, with our doi and so forth.

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

transition said:

you’re a deviant, rev :).

Why thankyou sir :)

which has me wondering, if humans are the only creatures that study behavioral influences, and behavior controls.

I think not.

Hasn’t it been proven pets (especially dogs) manipulate humans via behaviour to receive rewards/treats

Cymek said:

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why thankyou sir :)

which has me wondering, if humans are the only creatures that study behavioral influences, and behavior controls.

I think not.

Hasn’t it been proven pets (especially dogs) manipulate humans via behaviour to receive rewards/treats

dv said:

transition said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why thankyou sir :)

which has me wondering, if humans are the only creatures that study behavioral influences, and behavior controls.

I think not.

Well we can tell ourselves that we are more systematic about it than the other animals, with our doi and so forth.

What’s a doi?

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

transition said:

which has me wondering, if humans are the only creatures that study behavioral influences, and behavior controls.

I think not.

Well we can tell ourselves that we are more systematic about it than the other animals, with our doi and so forth.

What’s a doi?

digital object identifier. or maybe in this context depth of interest.

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

transition said:

which has me wondering, if humans are the only creatures that study behavioral influences, and behavior controls.

I think not.

Well we can tell ourselves that we are more systematic about it than the other animals, with our doi and so forth.

What’s a doi?

Digital object identifier.

Crime is a legal concept, so I’d say only humans recognise it.

Bubblecar said:

Crime is a legal concept, so I’d say only humans recognise it.

And even then it varies

Watching some Attenborough doco about the Great Barrier Reef it seems that some groups of cleaner fish have rules. One fish instead of picking out the parasites took a bite out of the big fish’s gills. The big fish swam away, the other cleaner fish turned on and chased the offending fish for breaking the rules.

Bubblecar said:

Crime is a legal concept, so I’d say only humans recognise it.

OK, but let’s not get hung up on the words. By “crime” I just mean behaviour that doesn’t fit the accepted normal behaviour of the group.

humans aren’t necessarily good at human nature studies. Own looking into own, all sorts of reasons that might go wrong, have distortions. You can’t assume others have the same or same range of internal mental states for example. Some similarities, yes.

strikes me that creatures learn a lot from studies of other species, you know once you have not-own-species, workings of category like that, discriminations. Predators, and being prey, both incentivize, come to mind.

lot of animals’d sense what are sort of universals, that things eat, shit, drink, sleep, hide, hang out with their own type, and then there are other things, like bigger, smaller, faster, slower, live in trees, live on the ground, live in holes, fly, don’t fly, the list is quite long.

nurturing young, thinking mammals, this is complex task, parents variously encourage this and discourage that.

even in common chooks, gallus gallus domesticus, the protective behaviors of mothers are impressive. Only other day was watching a hen push/guide its chicken to safety. Mum hen’s since been killed by a dog.

and that’s what this threads about in-good-part I reckon, protective behaviors, deterrents etc.

studies/study, can be same as familiarity, really.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Which other species have rules of behaviour, and punish individuals who do not follow them?

Which other species has the most complex system of social behaviour, crime and punishment?

Chimpanzees for sure have a concept of crime and punishment. Though in occasional cases high ranking males get away with murder unpunished.

Mountain Gorillas on the other hand seen to have a social system of “whatever you can get away with”. Higher ranking females for instance, are quite happy to murder lower ranking females and their children provided the high ranking males aren’t within earshot when it happens.

Several monkey species likewise leave murderers unpunished.

In one book I know, it is claimed that feral pigs will turn on an injured colleague and rip them to shreds.

On the other hand, I have observed altruistic cooperation in ants.

dv said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

dv said:

Well we can tell ourselves that we are more systematic about it than the other animals, with our doi and so forth.

What’s a doi?

Digital object identifier.

ah yes the old avatar fights we remember those

crows