Hi all,

We have two young citrus in the (Brisbane) yard: Kaffir Lime and Tahitian Lime. Both have developed some growth from the rootstock, that is clearly not the graft – it has a quite different leaf. How should I deal with it, and how can I stop it from recurring?

We would like to keep them both to a manageable size. Any pruning procedures I need to know? Or can they be shaped at any time, and in any (sensible) manner?

Thanks in advance

Michael V

Michael V said:

Hi all,

We have two young citrus in the (Brisbane) yard: Kaffir Lime and Tahitian Lime. Both have developed some growth from the rootstock, that is clearly not the graft – it has a quite different leaf. How should I deal with it, and how can I stop it from recurring?

We would like to keep them both to a manageable size. Any pruning procedures I need to know? Or can they be shaped at any time, and in any (sensible) manner?

Thanks in advance

Michael V

roughbarked is the citrus expert, but my understanding is that you need remove all leaves that are below the graft otherwise the rootstock will take over

Ta. I didn’t know that about roughbarked being a citrus expert. I’ll point him over here when I next see him on SSSF. He seems to have gone for now.

I did sort of guess the rootstock might take over, so thanks for confirming that bit.

:)

Michael V said:

Ta. I didn’t know that about roughbarked being a citrus expert. I’ll point him over here when I next see him on SSSF. He seems to have gone for now.

I did sort of guess the rootstock might take over, so thanks for confirming that bit.

:)

RB works in the citrus industry and has given me some great tips for grafting citrus

Yep all the above is correct.

the rootstock if trifoliate is likely Poncirus trifoliata and is capable of producing thorns up to and more than 100 mm.

Not your average hedge to fight through to get to your oranges or mandarins.

This rootsock will out compete the grafted top if not removed.

It does not bear a fruit that you would desire over the one you thought you purchased. Cut or pull off the shoots. if you cut use a sharp knife and pare as much of the nodal bud zone of the bark away as you can. this reduces the need to do it again.

You must do all you can to keep the top of the tree healthy. All trees grow better from the top after the bottom branches are removed. By dint of apical dominance if you keep the tip moving there will be a general reluctance to shoot from below the graft.

Whatever you do be careful of the spikes.

I have observed teh tips of the spikes go straight through my fingernails which in reality becomes a drag.. as the nail keeps growing. I have had them penetrate tilers knee pads and go all the way up under my kneecap and stay there.. for at least twenty years .. so far.

roughbarked said:

Whatever you do be careful of the spikes.

I have observed teh tips of the spikes go straight through my fingernails which in reality becomes a drag.. as the nail keeps growing. I have had them penetrate tilers knee pads and go all the way up under my kneecap and stay there.. for at least twenty years .. so far.

Yowsers! :O

hortfurball said:

roughbarked said:

Whatever you do be careful of the spikes.

I have observed teh tips of the spikes go straight through my fingernails which in reality becomes a drag.. as the nail keeps growing. I have had them penetrate tilers knee pads and go all the way up under my kneecap and stay there.. for at least twenty years .. so far.

Yowsers! :O

These are really serious plants to be playing with.. do not let them beat you.

the spikes can be rubbed off with a leather glove on.. when soft..

but need to be treated with great caution after they become hard.. very great caution.

Cut or pull off the shoots. if you cut use a sharp knife and pare as much of the nodal bud zone of the bark away as you can. this reduces the need to do it again.
——
OK, thanks roughbarked. Cutting or pulling off the shoots. I can do that!. Yes, they have thorns (only 15 mm at present). One plant has 4 or 5 short (200mm shoots -short and still soft) The other has a 1.2 metre shoot that is now taller than the grafted portion of the plant.

Now, should I paint any stuff on those budding areas? If so, what?

Michael V said:

Cut or pull off the shoots. if you cut use a sharp knife and pare as much of the nodal bud zone of the bark away as you can. this reduces the need to do it again.
——
OK, thanks roughbarked. Cutting or pulling off the shoots. I can do that!. Yes, they have thorns (only 15 mm at present). One plant has 4 or 5 short (200mm shoots -short and still soft) The other has a 1.2 metre shoot that is now taller than the grafted portion of the plant.

Now, should I paint any stuff on those budding areas? If so, what?

1.2 metres! whoah! you didn’t ask for advice any too soon…

OK ironcladcambium.aka roughbarked.
My old mate has lots of citrus and he has gone away for a month or two for a greying nomadic ritual.
When he returns, he will find all of his citrus fruit covered with a hard discolouration. I believe it is melanose.
Research suggests he removes the fruit and sprays with bordeaux or copper oxy,
to prevent next season’s fruit from doing the same.

Can ye shed any further light on this problem?

I’m a believer in prevention rather than cure.

Now, if I read roughbark’s reply correctly – don’t prune apical growth until it is as tall as I want the tree to be. If I want it taller, prune the lower branches.

Is there a particular time of year pruning would be best?

Will tip-pruning work? By that, I mean will removing tips or even long pieces force the tree to become bushy on that branch – like one would expect for hedgeable trees? Or will it efectively retard further growth on that branch?

1.2 metres! whoah! you didn’t ask for advice any too soon…
—-
To be fair, I have been away for most of the last 5 months. Also to be fair, Mrs V ( the main gardener) thought it was healthy growth on a plant that had suffered a massive insect attack when it was first planted…

Michael V said:

1.2 metres! whoah! you didn’t ask for advice any too soon…
—-
To be fair, I have been away for most of the last 5 months. Also to be fair, Mrs V ( the main gardener) thought it was healthy growth on a plant that had suffered a massive insect attack when it was first planted…

Fairy nuff…

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67449903@N00/3243561518/

This shot shows the young P. trifoliata shoot I have pulled off along with the things I had in my hands.. ie; secateurs knife and tape plus prepared bud sticks of the variety I am grafting on. These spikes keep growing like leaves do.

and running into one at a glancing blow while your hands are moving quickly is like .. well ,.. being a stunt driver for Mel Gibson.. in a movie called “a bull in a glassware shop”

anyway I once likened grafting(budding) citrus to shoving your hands in a barbed wire hedge and forcing them to move rapidly.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67449903@N00/3387293976/

Michael V said:

1.2 metres! whoah! you didn’t ask for advice any too soon…
—-
To be fair, I have been away for most of the last 5 months. Also to be fair, Mrs V ( the main gardener) thought it was healthy growth on a plant that had suffered a massive insect attack when it was first planted…

As per my original post.. When you buy a grafted tree you must do all you can to keep the top healthy

Remembering that if the top is healthy the rootsock must be doing ok.

A grafted tree from a nursery will always look something like those in the above image with a tree that looks much older on the bottom and a younger branch growing from a union created by one tree surgeon such as myself. Thr change in stem/trunk status should be obvious and any shoot that grows below this union, should be removed. This action reasserts apical dominance to the grafted branch.

Michael V said:

Mrs V ( the main gardener) thought it was healthy growth on a plant that had suffered a massive insect attack when it was first planted…

The amount of times i have seen such an answer as to why did it get like this.. is just horrendously immense.

It is like talking to a pet owner and asking why did you want a dog that grew this big if you can’t handle a mouse?

Sorry.. it just had to be said. Why plant a new tree when you are not going to be there to look after it?

Why plant a new tree when you are not going to be there to look after it?
—-
Mrs V bought and planted it whilst I was away. The insect defoliation apparently was over two days between bucket waterings.

roughbarked said:

Michael V said:

Mrs V ( the main gardener) thought it was healthy growth on a plant that had suffered a massive insect attack when it was first planted…

The amount of times i have seen such an answer as to why did it get like this.. is just horrendously immense.

It is like talking to a pet owner and asking why did you want a dog that grew this big if you can’t handle a mouse?

Sorry.. it just had to be said. Why plant a new tree when you are not going to be there to look after it?

Michael V and his son Matthew look after this forum for us…

I guess they didn’t realize just what was going on…I should imagine this is a typical problem for most citrus owners…this thread has been very educational for me, for starters….

Off to apply some yoghurt…

no need to paint anything on to stop shoots growing.. on the bottom shoots that is.

These all get the knife or th tug or the secateurs.. whichever seems easiest or appropraite.

The idea is to force the top to out compete the bottom.. or grafted scion to gain dominance.

This is everyday nursery work for folks like me.. We make the trees and people take them home and kill them.

This is how the nursery industry remains viable.

If you pay money for a tree and it survives the journey home.. then the next day is the most important to it’s survival. If it can get through that .. There is a chance.

Each day for the first 18 months is of the same importance.

The grafted part of a tree is what you thought you paid money for.. or in the case of a seedling or even a cutting.. the top you see is what you think you pay money for but it is really the root system .. which in the case of the grafted tree.. belongs to the rootstock.. is what you paid money for apart from the work of grafting the top on to it.

Well the grafted top is what the rootsock requires you to keep healthy.. or.. the rootstock will attempt to grow of it’s own accord. Rootstocks are always selected for their hardiness. This means that of course.. if you do not inhibit their growth, they will go for it.

Heavy insect attack on the grafted top simply indicates that the rootstock is having trouble carrying the grafted top.. without your help.

The rootstock is king.. it has the roots.. You have to nurse the grafted top or lose it.

Thus if your wife had said insects are attacing the top I would have asked which insects and prescribed a method of keeping the top free of said problems

Whenever shoots grow from below a graft.. no matter how healthy they look..(unless the current temperatures exceed 36 C) just get rid of them on sight.
They are spiky buggers so the faster you remove them from the rootstock the less time you have to spend with tweezers removing them from under your fingernails.

If your citrus trees have lawn near them.. please remove it.. for the sake of the tree.

no need to paint anything on to stop shoots growing.. on the bottom shoots that is.
——-
Thanks.

As for the other stuff – well, what can I say. I admit it – I am a brown thumb. A complete plant-growing dunce. In Armidale, it was easy. Select strongly frost-tolerant plants that didn’t mind damp roots. Water once on planting, mulch. Water again in one week’s time. Don’t water again. If it died in the first winter, it was not seriously frost-hardy. Minus 15°C at night for several weeks on end was the norm. Citrus was clearly out. The temperatures ensured no insects. Snails were our only pest problem. Pruning was unnecessary, as the frosts did that for us, with the occasional hair cut in summer to remove the straggly bits. Weeding was minimal, as the frosts did that.

Brisbane is different. Watering is absolutely essential. Buckets only – every second night – is all that is allowed. More water is necessary, really. Weeding. Well. They grow as soon as one turns one’s back. That’s the big job. That and carrying the buckets of water.

Luckily, no lawn nearby. A few vegetables and some chillis. Love chillis.

Very shallow clay-and-rock soil.

ok on your site your citrus should definitley be supplied with water from a drip irrigation system unless your rainfall is sufficient.

You should also probably feed them a couple of times at least with Magnesium sulphate; Epsom salts.

Citrus love foliage sprays so give them plenty of whatever takes your fancy from the supermarket shelf.
But do read the destructions.

definitley be supplied with water from a drip irrigation system
—-
I would love to, but using them is illegal.

You should also probably feed them a couple of times at least with Magnesium sulphate; Epsom salts.

Citrus love foliage sprays so give them plenty of whatever takes your fancy from the supermarket shelf.
But do read the destructions.

————————
Thanks, roughbarked.

Is that just a couple of times, or a couple of times a year for the MgSO4?

Michael V said:

definitley be supplied with water from a drip irrigation system
—-
I would love to, but using them is illegal.

Michael V, could you rig up a system, the local council used to use it, a 25 litre container (ex – cleaning product or similar) with a tap where the tap is supposed to go, and a regulated dripper coming out of it…you could keep it topped up with shower water or last rinse washing machine water…possibly even have the dripper as a ring around the drip-line of the trees…

Michael V said:

You should also probably feed them a couple of times at least with Magnesium sulphate; Epsom salts.

Citrus love foliage sprays so give them plenty of whatever takes your fancy from the supermarket shelf.
But do read the destructions.

————————
Thanks, roughbarked.

Is that just a couple of times, or a couple of times a year for the MgSO4?

It reads like a couple of times a year….

OK I am not aware of your local water restrictions but here you are allowed to water with drip systems. I’d triple check my council water restrictions.
Essentially speaking, if no garden was ever allowed to not have a drip system then we may not be in so badly off the current crisis.
It is madness to tell people to water with hand held hoses during the day. Sure a hand held hose may be occasionally used during the day but only to water in some transplanted seedlings or whatever. Watering at night should be mandatory.

A couple of times initially is often all that is needed to break the gridlock but once or twice a year with the epsom salts won’t hurt the tree if it needs it.

OK I am not aware of your local water restrictions but here you are allowed to water with drip systems. I’d triple check my council water restrictions.
Essentially speaking, if no garden was ever allowed to not have a drip system then we may not be in so badly off the current crisis.
It is madness to tell people to water with hand held hoses during the day. Sure a hand held hose may be occasionally used during the day but only to water in some transplanted seedlings or whatever. Watering at night should be mandatory.

A couple of times initially is often all that is needed to break the gridlock but once or twice a year with the epsom salts won’t hurt the tree if it needs it.

Manganese/Zinc is a common citrus foliage feed to help avoid various leaf discolourations due to deficiencies. In more severe cases Zinc sulphate Iron sulphate and as I said above Magnesium sulphate in small does can bring the tree back to vigour.

Citrus will enjoy a feed of chook poop but make sure you weather the manures you use before applying them.

Ta. MgSO4 – would a couple of teaspoons each time, into weak solution say, 8-10 litres of H2O, for each tree, each time do?

Regarding garden watering in Brisbane. Hand-held hoses are not legal to use (except 1/2 hour Sunday evening). Fixed systems, including drip systems are also illegal to use, except where they are supplied solely by rainwater – something I can’t do here yet, because I have an asbestos-cement roof that must be replaced before I collect H2O from it (and as you know, no job now).

——- Buckets only, filled from a fixed tap, three nights per week is all that is legal for garden watering.

It was much worse: Buckets only, one specific hour, three evenings per week, no hoses at all.

http://www.qwc.qld.gov.au/myfiles/uploads/high%20level%20restrictions/HL%20fact%20sheet%20-%20gardens.pdf

Cheers and thanks again for your assistance
Michael V :)

Michael V said:

Ta. MgSO4 – would a couple of teaspoons each time, into weak solution say, 8-10 litres of H2O, for each tree, each time do?

Regarding garden watering in Brisbane. Hand-held hoses are not legal to use (except 1/2 hour Sunday evening). Fixed systems, including drip systems are also illegal to use, except where they are supplied solely by rainwater – something I can’t do here yet, because I have an asbestos-cement roof that must be replaced before I collect H2O from it (and as you know, no job now).

——- Buckets only, filled from a fixed tap, three nights per week is all that is legal for garden watering.

It was much worse: Buckets only, one specific hour, three evenings per week, no hoses at all.

http://www.qwc.qld.gov.au/myfiles/uploads/high%20level%20restrictions/HL%20fact%20sheet%20-%20gardens.pdf

Cheers and thanks again for your assistance
Michael V :)

yes approx 20 gms(4 teaspoons) to 10 litres would be ample. Water it in around the root zone and dripline.

Gasp. water restrictions like that in Brisbane!

Yes cities are having a hard time of it with antiquated water storage and exploding populations.

Strange.. just as I said that an explosion.. probably from the quarry a few km’s away just rocked my head. First time I have heard one. Though they have been there for years.

roughbarked said:

Yes cities are having a hard time of it with antiquated water storage and exploding populations.

Strange.. just as I said that an explosion.. probably from the quarry a few km’s away just rocked my head. First time I have heard one. Though they have been there for years.

Did you jump? :D