Let’s say you wanted to make the best possible sword using any and all of the modern methods and materials available. What would it be made of and how to make it?

Is steel still the best option?

party_pants said:

Let’s say you wanted to make the best possible sword using any and all of the modern methods and materials available. What would it be made of and how to make it?

Is steel still the best option?

I’d say ‘yes’ to steel.

As for making it, the methods they use for samurai swords is pretty good.

Heat the metal block until it’s malleable, fold it in half, hammer flat.

Repeat. Many, many times.

Samurai swords can have as many as 30,000 ‘layers’ of steel in that way. Extremely tough and durable.

party_pants said:

Let’s say you wanted to make the best possible sword using any and all of the modern methods and materials available. What would it be made of and how to make it?

Is steel still the best option?

Probably not steel, there at lighter and stronger metals available, titanium comes to mind or an alloy there of.

Peak Warming Man said:

party_pants said:

Let’s say you wanted to make the best possible sword using any and all of the modern methods and materials available. What would it be made of and how to make it?

Is steel still the best option?

Probably not steel, there at lighter and stronger metals available, titanium comes to mind or an alloy there of.

Steel is a whole lot easier to work with.

captain_spalding said:

Peak Warming Man said:

party_pants said:

Let’s say you wanted to make the best possible sword using any and all of the modern methods and materials available. What would it be made of and how to make it?

Is steel still the best option?

Probably not steel, there at lighter and stronger metals available, titanium comes to mind or an alloy there of.

Steel is a whole lot easier to work with.

Yes but we’re making a one off best ever sword here.

In an apocalyptic world the leaf springs in cars are supposed to have good sword metallurgy.

Peak Warming Man said:

party_pants said:

Let’s say you wanted to make the best possible sword using any and all of the modern methods and materials available. What would it be made of and how to make it?

Is steel still the best option?

Probably not steel, there at lighter and stronger metals available, titanium comes to mind or an alloy there of.

You want a sword to be reasonably heavy. Titanium would probably be too light.

captain_spalding said:

party_pants said:

Let’s say you wanted to make the best possible sword using any and all of the modern methods and materials available. What would it be made of and how to make it?

Is steel still the best option?

I’d say ‘yes’ to steel.

As for making it, the methods they use for samurai swords is pretty good.

Samurai swords can have as many as 30,000 ‘layers’ of steel in that way. Extremely tough and durable.

30,000 layers is only about 15 folds, JFTR.

Bubblecar said:

Peak Warming Man said:

party_pants said:

Let’s say you wanted to make the best possible sword using any and all of the modern methods and materials available. What would it be made of and how to make it?

Is steel still the best option?

Probably not steel, there at lighter and stronger metals available, titanium comes to mind or an alloy there of.

You want a sword to be reasonably heavy. Titanium would probably be too light.

…but of course it depends on what you’re going to do with it. A medieval broadsword, designed to smash through armour, is obviously going to be much heavier than a sword used for the sport of fencing.

party_pants said:

Let’s say you wanted to make the best possible sword using any and all of the modern methods and materials available. What would it be made of and how to make it?

Is steel still the best option?

Miss m did a materials science course at Uni and I grabbed her text book when she finished. I’ll look it up.

A sword needs to have very high surface hardness, be tough (in a Charpy vee notch sense), and be light or heavy as required.

How important is cost? Let’s initially say no limit on cost and then progressively reduce the cost.

mollwollfumble said:

party_pants said:

Let’s say you wanted to make the best possible sword using any and all of the modern methods and materials available. What would it be made of and how to make it?

Is steel still the best option?

Miss m did a materials science course at Uni and I grabbed her text book when she finished. I’ll look it up.

A sword needs to have very high surface hardness, be tough (in a Charpy vee notch sense), and be light or heavy as required.

How important is cost? Let’s initially say no limit on cost and then progressively reduce the cost.

Doesn’t matter the cost (yeah)

You’ll probably need something made from iron mined from below the ancient sea in the lowest depths of the under Carpathians by the blind Animist monks, wood for charcoal from the last of the cliff oaks and felled at a full moon, bones from the crypt of the Counts of Bulgaria, heated in the lost retort of dwarf metal workers of the great glade. Plus some virgin maids tears for the quenching and you should be right. Full recipie is in a codex in a Tibetan library.

Rule 303 said:

captain_spalding said:

party_pants said:

Let’s say you wanted to make the best possible sword using any and all of the modern methods and materials available. What would it be made of and how to make it?

Is steel still the best option?

I’d say ‘yes’ to steel.

As for making it, the methods they use for samurai swords is pretty good.

Samurai swords can have as many as 30,000 ‘layers’ of steel in that way. Extremely tough and durable.

30,000 layers is only about 15 folds, JFTR.

Yeah, but it’s still a lot of work, all that heating and hammering.

There is (was?) a sword-maker in Japan who was a ‘national living treasure’. Did it all by hand, very traditional methods.

captain_spalding said:

Yeah, but it’s still a lot of work, all that heating and hammering.

There is (was?) a sword-maker in Japan who was a ‘national living treasure’. Did it all by hand, very traditional methods.

So the question really boils down to: is there a better modern method or material than the traditional Japanese Samurai sword.

I used to have a sword. Wilkinson sword. Yes, they really make swords, not just razors. Sold it decades back, for about as much as i paid for it.

Never sharpened, of course. Until comparatively recently (certainly within my memory), one of the parts of the procedure laid down for mobilisation for war was that an instruction be issued that ‘officers will sharpen swords’. Not any more, though.

captain_spalding said:

Rule 303 said:

captain_spalding said:

I’d say ‘yes’ to steel.

As for making it, the methods they use for samurai swords is pretty good.

Samurai swords can have as many as 30,000 ‘layers’ of steel in that way. Extremely tough and durable.

30,000 layers is only about 15 folds, JFTR.

Yeah, but it’s still a lot of work, all that heating and hammering.

There is (was?) a sword-maker in Japan who was a ‘national living treasure’. Did it all by hand, very traditional methods.

Just a thought, but what if you have machinery that would take a sheet of steel, fold and hammer at infinitum, then the shape of the sword could be pressed out and then sharpened to whatever is required.

captain_spalding said:

I used to have a sword. Wilkinson sword. Yes, they really make swords, not just razors. Sold it decades back, for about as much as i paid for it.

Never sharpened, of course. Until comparatively recently (certainly within my memory), one of the parts of the procedure laid down for mobilisation for war was that an instruction be issued that ‘officers will sharpen swords’. Not any more, though.

There was a Scottish officer photographed on DDay going up the beach with a claymore.

AwesomeO said:

captain_spalding said:

I used to have a sword. Wilkinson sword. Yes, they really make swords, not just razors. Sold it decades back, for about as much as i paid for it.

Never sharpened, of course. Until comparatively recently (certainly within my memory), one of the parts of the procedure laid down for mobilisation for war was that an instruction be issued that ‘officers will sharpen swords’. Not any more, though.

There was a Scottish officer photographed on DDay going up the beach with a claymore.

There was one English ratbag who invaded France armed with a longbow.

PermeateFree said:

captain_spalding said:

Rule 303 said:

30,000 layers is only about 15 folds, JFTR.

Yeah, but it’s still a lot of work, all that heating and hammering.

There is (was?) a sword-maker in Japan who was a ‘national living treasure’. Did it all by hand, very traditional methods.

Just a thought, but what if you have machinery that would take a sheet of steel, fold and hammer at infinitum, then the shape of the sword could be pressed out and then sharpened to whatever is required.

or laser cut perhaps?

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

captain_spalding said:

Yeah, but it’s still a lot of work, all that heating and hammering.

There is (was?) a sword-maker in Japan who was a ‘national living treasure’. Did it all by hand, very traditional methods.

Just a thought, but what if you have machinery that would take a sheet of steel, fold and hammer at infinitum, then the shape of the sword could be pressed out and then sharpened to whatever is required.

or laser cut perhaps?

We could mass produce high quality swords, but to whom could we sell them?

PermeateFree said:

captain_spalding said:

Rule 303 said:

30,000 layers is only about 15 folds, JFTR.

Yeah, but it’s still a lot of work, all that heating and hammering.

There is (was?) a sword-maker in Japan who was a ‘national living treasure’. Did it all by hand, very traditional methods.

Just a thought, but what if you have machinery that would take a sheet of steel, fold and hammer at infinitum, then the shape of the sword could be pressed out and then sharpened to whatever is required.

You can’t do it ad infinitude apparently, you lose material with every blow.

folding is just one aspect of a japanese sword though. the crystalline structure produced by the application of different thicknesses of “mud” to the blade before heating and quenching play a more important roll in the quality of the sword.

Bogsnorkler said:

folding is just one aspect of a japanese sword though. the crystalline structure produced by the application of different thicknesses of “mud” to the blade before heating and quenching play a more important roll in the quality of the sword.

role.

Bogsnorkler said:

Bogsnorkler said:

folding is just one aspect of a japanese sword though. the crystalline structure produced by the application of different thicknesses of “mud” to the blade before heating and quenching play a more important roll in the quality of the sword.

role.

you were on a roll there in your new role.

AwesomeO said:

PermeateFree said:

captain_spalding said:

Yeah, but it’s still a lot of work, all that heating and hammering.

There is (was?) a sword-maker in Japan who was a ‘national living treasure’. Did it all by hand, very traditional methods.

Just a thought, but what if you have machinery that would take a sheet of steel, fold and hammer at infinitum, then the shape of the sword could be pressed out and then sharpened to whatever is required.

You can’t do it ad infinitude apparently, you lose material with every blow.

How about as long as the Japanese masters then?

Steel is still the strongest common metal. Up to 3,000 MPa.

Nickel is 10 to 100 times as tough. Strength up to above 2,000 MPa.

Ceramics are much harder and stronger than steel, but nowhere near as tough. They are also corrosion proof.

This suggests that the best option for a modern sword of conventional dimensions would be a thin ceramic coat on a nickel core.

If extra weight is needed then a core containing depleted uranium or other heavy metal is a possibiiity.

If toughness is not an issue then diamond-like carbon has the combination of light weight, extremely high strength, extreme hardness, and is corrosion proof.

PermeateFree said:

AwesomeO said:

PermeateFree said:

Just a thought, but what if you have machinery that would take a sheet of steel, fold and hammer at infinitum, then the shape of the sword could be pressed out and then sharpened to whatever is required.

You can’t do it ad infinitude apparently, you lose material with every blow.

How about as long as the Japanese masters then?

About 14-16 folds, depending on how many layers you start with.

I understand they had two different steels in layers as their starter. Hence the folding and leyring.

mollwollfumble said:

Steel is still the strongest common metal. Up to 3,000 MPa.

Nickel is 10 to 100 times as tough. Strength up to above 2,000 MPa.

Ceramics are much harder and stronger than steel, but nowhere near as tough. They are also corrosion proof.

This suggests that the best option for a modern sword of conventional dimensions would be a thin ceramic coat on a nickel core.

If extra weight is needed then a core containing depleted uranium or other heavy metal is a possibiiity.

If toughness is not an issue then diamond-like carbon has the combination of light weight, extremely high strength, extreme hardness, and is corrosion proof.

toughness would be an issue for swords.

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

AwesomeO said:

You can’t do it ad infinitude apparently, you lose material with every blow.

How about as long as the Japanese masters then?

About 14-16 folds, depending on how many layers you start with.

I understand they had two different steels in layers as their starter. Hence the folding and leyring.

Don’t you think with today’s brilliance at automation, our engineers could not do the same here?

PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

How about as long as the Japanese masters then?

About 14-16 folds, depending on how many layers you start with.

I understand they had two different steels in layers as their starter. Hence the folding and leyring.

Don’t you think with today’s brilliance at automation, our engineers could not do the same here?

absolutely – induction heating or gas furnace plus high pressure rollers should do the folding as good as any traditional craftsman.

Wouldn’t the answer depend on the nature of the combat?

dv said:

Wouldn’t the answer depend on the nature of the combat?

And the other guy’s sword?

dv said:

Wouldn’t the answer depend on the nature of the combat?

Something that can go up against the terrible swift sword.

Rule 303 said:

dv said:

Wouldn’t the answer depend on the nature of the combat?

And the other guy’s sword?

Whether it was one on one, or you were expecting to be part of an army? Whether you ever had to run with it? Is the enemy expected to be about your size?

dv said:

Wouldn’t the answer depend on the nature of the combat?

If you like you can some up with a table of different scenarios for different opponents. Say:
Roman soldier
Medieval knight
Japanese samurai
Viking marauder (Vikings had quality swords well advanced of anything else of their day)
Scythians
Monguls

etc

Peak Warming Man said:

dv said:

Wouldn’t the answer depend on the nature of the combat?

Something that can go up against the terrible swift sword.

A vorpal sword.

If Excalibur got into a fight with Hrunting, who would win?

AwesomeO said:

Peak Warming Man said:

dv said:

Wouldn’t the answer depend on the nature of the combat?

Something that can go up against the terrible swift sword.

A vorpal sword.

long time the manxome foe he sought
so rested he by the Tumtum tree
and stood a while in thought.

:)

dv said:

If Excalibur got into a fight with Hrunting, who would win?

hard to say, both were pretty magical and imbued their wielders with certain powers.

I know a bloke who makes his own halberds and battle axes. His shed is full of them.

He’s barking mad.

Bogsnorkler said:

dv said:

If Excalibur got into a fight with Hrunting, who would win?

hard to say, both were pretty magical and imbued their wielders with certain powers.

I like the dual wield sanguine rose. “ a challenger is near”.

AwesomeO said:

A vorpal sword.

I thought this didn’t exist, just nonsense verse, until recently heard about it being the name of a Jewish sword. Not sure now.

Turbine blades need some of the same properties as swords, particularly high hardness and toughness. They are made with a ductile metal core of nickel superalloy or titanium alloy with an extremely fine grain very hard coating. The core is a single crystal of metal. In 2003, the most common outer layer was alpha alumina α-Al2O3, also called corundum or ruby, with a Mohs hardness of 9 as against only 7.5 to 8 for best quality hardened steel (a steel file has hardness 6.5).

Eg. Nickel aluminide (Ni3Al) is an intermetallic alloy of nickel and aluminum with properties similar to both a ceramic and a metal.

MCrAlY coatings (where M = Co, Ni or Co/Ni) are widely applied to first and second stage turbine blades and nozzle guide vanes, where they may be used as corrosion resistant bond-coats for use with coatings.

In gas turbines, low temperature blades are made of titanium alloys, while high temperature components use Ni-base superalloys.

I haven’t had an enemy come near me in ages, got Auriels bow with sun hallowed arrows, Lydia with an uber bow and up armoured to the shizzle, got Lucien the spiritual assassin and Shadowmere, mere hint of trouble use the sanguine rose summon a dremora and get a flame atronauch going and watch the fight.

I used to carry around an electric monk but he didn’t level up and ended up pretty useless in fights and in the way in tight places.

It will all make sense to some.

“Composite Diamond Coatings can be successfully bonded to most metals and alloys. We regularly treat steel, carbon steel, titanium, stainless steel, aluminum, iron, brass, bronze, copper, Hastelloy, Inconel, Monel, as well as other nickel alloys. We can apply coating thicknesses up to 0.025” per surface. Our standard coating thickness for this technology platform is 0.002” per surface. Coatings are extremely conformal and uniform and will replicate all existing surface geometries of your tooling.”

A smooth surface coating of diamond would make sense for a sword.

for the modern world?

wood

a bokken is more than necessary to inflict a mortal blow and the great thing – it won’t cut you if you handle it

don’t believe me – just ask this guy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miyamoto_Musashi

mollwollfumble said:

AwesomeO said:

A vorpal sword.

I thought this didn’t exist, just nonsense verse, until recently heard about it being the name of a Jewish sword. Not sure now.

Turbine blades need some of the same properties as swords, particularly high hardness and toughness. They are made with a ductile metal core of nickel superalloy or titanium alloy with an extremely fine grain very hard coating. The core is a single crystal of metal. In 2003, the most common outer layer was alpha alumina α-Al2O3, also called corundum or ruby, with a Mohs hardness of 9 as against only 7.5 to 8 for best quality hardened steel (a steel file has hardness 6.5).

Eg. Nickel aluminide (Ni3Al) is an intermetallic alloy of nickel and aluminum with properties similar to both a ceramic and a metal.

MCrAlY coatings (where M = Co, Ni or Co/Ni) are widely applied to first and second stage turbine blades and nozzle guide vanes, where they may be used as corrosion resistant bond-coats for use with coatings.

In gas turbines, low temperature blades are made of titanium alloys, while high temperature components use Ni-base superalloys.

Sounds like a great idea. I guess nobody has ever tried it.

AwesomeO said:

You’ll probably need something made from iron mined from below the ancient sea in the lowest depths of the under Carpathians by the blind Animist monks, wood for charcoal from the last of the cliff oaks and felled at a full moon, bones from the crypt of the Counts of Bulgaria, heated in the lost retort of dwarf metal workers of the great glade. Plus some virgin maids tears for the quenching and you should be right. Full recipie is in a codex in a Tibetan library.

I’ll try and arrange the virgin tears if you can bring the rest.

party_pants said:

AwesomeO said:

Peak Warming Man said:

Something that can go up against the terrible swift sword.

A vorpal sword.

long time the manxome foe he sought
so rested he by the Tumtum tree
and stood a while in thought.

:)

I suppose you’ll be expecting me to explain the derivation of the word “vorpal”.

I would if I could, but I can’t.

party_pants said:

AwesomeO said:

You’ll probably need something made from iron mined from below the ancient sea in the lowest depths of the under Carpathians by the blind Animist monks, wood for charcoal from the last of the cliff oaks and felled at a full moon, bones from the crypt of the Counts of Bulgaria, heated in the lost retort of dwarf metal workers of the great glade. Plus some virgin maids tears for the quenching and you should be right. Full recipie is in a codex in a Tibetan library.

I’ll try and arrange the virgin tears if you can bring the rest.

You are either very innocent or very sinister in the ways of the world. I don’t know which is more frightening.

How many different styles of sword are there? There’s an old story of King Richard and Saladin. King Richard’s sword could cut an iron bar, Saladin’s sword could cut silk.

The material best suited to different types of sword may be different. The only real swords I’ve handled have been a fencing foil and a Jamaican cutlass. The cutlass looked big and was made of steel but was startlingly lightweight.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_swords

Classification by hilt type
Handedness
Great sword
Claymore
Beidenhänder
Svärdstav

Classification by blade type

Double-edge and straight swords
Jian
Longsword
Broadsword
Long knife and short sword

Edgeless and thrusting swords
Xiphos
Rapier
Panzerstecher and koncerz
Tuck and verdun
Small-sword

Single-edge and curved swords
Backsword
Dao
Hook Sword
Kopis
Katana
Hanger
Falchion and cutlass
Sabre
Scimitar

This is what wikipedia has to say about ceramic knives.

Zirconium oxide is used due to its polymorphism. It exists in three phases: monoclinic, tetragonal and cubic. The highest strength and toughness is produced by the addition of 3 mol% yttrium oxide yielding partially stabilized zirconia. This material consists of a mixture of tetragonal and cubic phases with a bending strength of nearly 1,200 MPa. Small cracks allow phase transformations to occur, which essentially close the cracks and prevent catastrophic failure, resulting in a relatively tough ceramic material, sometimes known as TTZ (transformation-toughened zirconia).

captain_spalding said:

I’d say ‘yes’ to steel.

As for making it, the methods they use for samurai swords is pretty good.

Heat the metal block until it’s malleable, fold it in half, hammer flat.

Repeat. Many, many times.

Samurai swords can have as many as 30,000 ‘layers’ of steel in that way. Extremely tough and durable.

Folding was only done because the ore being used was very poor quality. It is a myth that Japanese swords made in this way were superior to European medieval swords which were made out of a much less impure ore. Swords made from modern mono steel are far superior to both.

esselte said:

captain_spalding said:

I’d say ‘yes’ to steel.

As for making it, the methods they use for samurai swords is pretty good.

Heat the metal block until it’s malleable, fold it in half, hammer flat.

Repeat. Many, many times.

Samurai swords can have as many as 30,000 ‘layers’ of steel in that way. Extremely tough and durable.

Folding was only done because the ore being used was very poor quality. It is a myth that Japanese swords made in this way were superior to European medieval swords which were made out of a much less impure ore. Swords made from modern mono steel are far superior to both.

Yep, I agree with that. Much of sword lore is just complete bushwa. If modern metallurgy and engineering techniques couldn’t blow old style swords out of the water I’d go he.

Bubblecar said:

You want a sword to be reasonably heavy. Titanium would probably be too light.

Many swords have fullers (blood grooves) specifically to lighten them. A club is much more useful and durable for bashing people in metal armour than a sword. Generally straight swords are designed for poking or stabbing rather than cutting. Straight swords are supposed to be used for stabbing between the gaps in metal armour. Curved swords like the katana are designed for slicing, particularly through leather armour. A heavy sword is not advantageous in either of these situations.

From an older (1994) article.

There are thought to be great technical and economic benefits potentially available through the application of multiple surface engineering technologies in new market sectors. This is illustrated through the combined plasma and PVD treatment of low alloy steel substrates. Unique opportunities exist, through the advent of high energy beam technologies, to liquid phase thermochemically alloy aluminium and titanium materials which can then be combined with plasma or PVD techniques to enhance the performance of engineering components by many orders of magnitude. The most recent work in this field suggests that roller element bearings in titanium alloys will soon be within the bounds of design capability and advances towards the design and manufacture of titanium gears could well be possible in the longer term.

Different styles of swords would suit different types of armour. Options include:

No armour eg. Samurai, Mongol and Viking swords. Easy.
Leather armour
Avoidance of shield
Chain gmail
Steel armour
Kevlar bulletproof
Stab proof

There’s also the issue of mounted soldier against foot soldier and vice versa.

Other issues include hand and blade protection against another swordsman and carrying the sword long distances.

mollwollfumble said:

Different styles of swords would suit different types of armour. Options include:

No armour eg. Samurai, Mongol and Viking swords. Easy.
Leather armour
Avoidance of shield
Chain gmail
Steel armour
Kevlar bulletproof
Stab proof

There’s also the issue of mounted soldier against foot soldier and vice versa.

Other issues include hand and blade protection against another swordsman and carrying the sword long distances.

And different forms of fighting, Romans had a short stabbing sword and they stabbed at the bloke to their right? Trusting their mate to stab the bloke to the front? Or something like that.

Some society’s fought as blocks, some it was almost single combat.

And for a very interesting mode of warfare look at the plains Indians counting coup, where bravery was esteemed above all else and there was more honour in placing your self in danger and letting your enemy live. It was described as a deadly game of tag.

AwesomeO said:

mollwollfumble said:

Different styles of swords would suit different types of armour. Options include:

No armour eg. Samurai, Mongol and Viking swords. Easy.
Leather armour
Avoidance of shield
Chain gmail
Steel armour
Kevlar bulletproof
Stab proof

There’s also the issue of mounted soldier against foot soldier and vice versa.

Other issues include hand and blade protection against another swordsman and carrying the sword long distances.

And different forms of fighting, Romans had a short stabbing sword and they stabbed at the bloke to their right? Trusting their mate to stab the bloke to the front? Or something like that.

Some society’s fought as blocks, some it was almost single combat.

Yet get an Italian to fight in a uniform these days. Ya dreamin’.