It’s not a viola but I don’t have a name for it because, so far as I can tell, nothing quite like it has ever been made before. It’s in the violin family, is half way in size between a violin and a cello, is made mostly of polyester and, despite being bowed, will be held off straps like a guitar. It’s not tuned like a viola or cello, but in between.

OK. I’m just about to widen the slots on the real bridge to take the strings. What is the betting on the following options?

1) No amplification of sound by the body from one or more strings.
2) Annoying buzzing sound, or goes off pitch at random, or breaks strings.
3) Highly dissonant.
4) A bearable sound, or would be if played properly.
5) A nicer sound than the viola.

The image below is the previous trial assembly, without the final strings, nut or bridge. Note the guitar-style headstock and tuning pegs. That trial assembly made no sound from the body at all. I’m hoping for a Number 4. There is another option: That it has a beautiful sound but can’t be held like a guitar.

Prediction please. I am soooo nervous.

Is is coated in Marzipan?

I hope you get someone who knows how to play a ciola to try it out before making your decision!

Good luck moll, and full marks for effort.

Sorry, folks, keep betting. A piece snapped off the bridge while trying to widen a slot. Will have to try casting the missing bit. Won’t be ready today.

The Rev Dodgson said:

I hope you get someone who knows how to play a ciola to try it out before making your decision!

“ciola”

That’s a great name. Wish I’d thought of that!

Where do I find someone who knows how to play a ciola?

I know a violin teacher, but I’ve seen the fear in her face as she looked at it.

mollwollfumble said:

Sorry, folks, keep betting. A piece snapped off the bridge while trying to widen a slot. Will have to try casting the missing bit. Won’t be ready today.

The Rev Dodgson said:

I hope you get someone who knows how to play a ciola to try it out before making your decision!

“ciola”

That’s a great name. Wish I’d thought of that!

Where do I find someone who knows how to play a ciola?

I know a violin teacher, but I’ve seen the fear in her face as she looked at it.

Local school that has a music programme might give it a go

Oh, wait, not so great.

“ciola – Wiktionary
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ciola
ciola. Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary. Jump to navigation Jump to search. Tarantino. Noun. ciola. dick (penis). Retrieved from …”

Great joke, though.

mollwollfumble said:

Oh, wait, not so great.

“ciola – Wiktionary
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ciola
ciola. Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary. Jump to navigation Jump to search. Tarantino. Noun. ciola. dick (penis). Retrieved from …”

Great joke, though.

I’ll just accept the compliment and not mention that I didn’t know that.

How about “plazmolla”…umm…. “mollstica”… umm… “pollymollyola”?

Ian said:

How about “plazmolla”…umm…. “mollstica”… umm… “pollymollyola”?

I love it. The “mello”?

Well, there’s nothing wrong with the sound quality for the three strings that I was able to put on. Got to fix the bridge before the fourth.

The sound quality really does sound like a cross between a violin and a cello. Good for volume, too.

Had another win. Even without a support strap it is playable sitting down supported on the right thigh – well, playable on three strings anyway.

The string height on the nut for the lowest string is a bit high, makes it tough on the fingers to play a semitone above the lowest G.

sibeen said:

Is is coated in Marzipan?

Yes.

looks like fun,havent played guitar in years

halfway between a violin and a cello

viollo??? cellin???

boppa said:

looks like fun,havent played guitar in years

halfway between a violin and a cello

viollo??? cellin???

Good.

“Cellin (セルリン, Seruririn) is the name of Cell after absoribing Krillin in a what if episode. In Dragon Ball Z: Budokai, Cell has a nightmare during his wait for the Cell Games to start. … With his power level taking a drastic drop, Cell is barely able …”

Stages of construction.

Figure 1. What I was aiming for. This instrument is an Alto Violin from the Violin Octet.

Figure 2. MDF templates. Comparison of sizes, chose the larger template. At left is a 1/2 violin.

Figure 3. Shape of violin from Muratov’s book.

Figure 4. Playing position.

Figure 5a. Making the front and back from wet T-shirt material.

Figure 5b. Marking the bridge and sound holes. Printout from a classical Tenor Viola.

Figure 6a. Making the sides from polyester-impregnated upholstery fabric on a nailboard.

Figure 6b. Attaching the sides to the back.

Figure 7. The position of the thrust rod

Figure 8. MDF template for the bass bar (discarded design).

Figure 9a. Making the neck.from polyester-impregnated upholstery fabric on a nailboard.

Figure 9b. Assembling the neck.

Figure 10. Headstock with tuning pegs.

Figure 11. Casting the nut and bridge.

>Stages of construction.

Interesting

>Figure 4. Playing position.

What is the advantage of your instrument over a tenor viola with attachment points for a strap?

Ian said:

>Stages of construction.

Interesting

>Figure 4. Playing position.

What is the advantage of your instrument over a tenor viola with attachment points for a strap?

I can see several advantages. But keep in mind that I’ve never seen a tenor viola.

Acoustically. Because the body is bigger, the sound is louder.

For me, because of limited mobility of fingers in my left hand, turning the instrument 90 degrees makes fingering easier.

Viola players have several health problems. Three that I know of. All three would be worse with a tenor viola than a standard viola. One is that the thickness under the chin leads to neck pain. A second is that the weight of the instrument tires the arm. A third is that the stretch to the fingerboard makes fingering more difficult. The playing position off straps hopefully helps all three.

mollwollfumble said:

Ian said:

>Stages of construction.

Interesting

>Figure 4. Playing position.

What is the advantage of your instrument over a tenor viola with attachment points for a strap?

I can see several advantages. But keep in mind that I’ve never seen a tenor viola.

Acoustically. Because the body is bigger, the sound is louder.

For me, because of limited mobility of fingers in my left hand, turning the instrument 90 degrees makes fingering easier.

Viola players have several health problems. Three that I know of. All three would be worse with a tenor viola than a standard viola. One is that the thickness under the chin leads to neck pain. A second is that the weight of the instrument tires the arm. A third is that the stretch to the fingerboard makes fingering more difficult. The playing position off straps hopefully helps all three.

Oh wait. Sorry, I misunderstood the question. Try again.

If straps were added to a standard tenor viola. I hadn’t thought of that. The risk is that the bow could hit the face rather than pass over the left shoulder. That’s why I went for the larger template.

There may or may not be a problem at the other end. The lower bridge of the tenor viola may make the top string unplayable.

Knowing more now about strap attachment, those may be fixable. The problem of the undersized body of the tenor viola still remains.

mollwollfumble said:

Ian said:

>Stages of construction.

Interesting

>Figure 4. Playing position.

What is the advantage of your instrument over a tenor viola with attachment points for a strap?

I can see several advantages. But keep in mind that I’ve never seen a tenor viola.

Acoustically. Because the body is bigger, the sound is louder.

For me, because of limited mobility of fingers in my left hand, turning the instrument 90 degrees makes fingering easier.

Viola players have several health problems. Three that I know of. All three would be worse with a tenor viola than a standard viola. One is that the thickness under the chin leads to neck pain. A second is that the weight of the instrument tires the arm. A third is that the stretch to the fingerboard makes fingering more difficult. The playing position off straps hopefully helps all three.

Yes, I get that. I meant what are the advantages in playing position of your instrument vs a viola rotated 90° on a strap?

mollwollfumble said:

mollwollfumble said:

Ian said:

>Stages of construction.

Interesting

>Figure 4. Playing position.

What is the advantage of your instrument over a tenor viola with attachment points for a strap?

I can see several advantages. But keep in mind that I’ve never seen a tenor viola.

Acoustically. Because the body is bigger, the sound is louder.

For me, because of limited mobility of fingers in my left hand, turning the instrument 90 degrees makes fingering easier.

Viola players have several health problems. Three that I know of. All three would be worse with a tenor viola than a standard viola. One is that the thickness under the chin leads to neck pain. A second is that the weight of the instrument tires the arm. A third is that the stretch to the fingerboard makes fingering more difficult. The playing position off straps hopefully helps all three.

Oh wait. Sorry, I misunderstood the question. Try again.

If straps were added to a standard tenor viola. I hadn’t thought of that. The risk is that the bow could hit the face rather than pass over the left shoulder. That’s why I went for the larger template.

There may or may not be a problem at the other end. The lower bridge of the tenor viola may make the top string unplayable.

Knowing more now about strap attachment, those may be fixable. The problem of the undersized body of the tenor viola still remains.

I see.

Why not just go for a cello? Do you need the viola’s range?

Ian said:

I see.

Why not just go for a cello? Do you need the viola’s range?

I have that as a backup plan. I’ve bought a 1/2 scale cello second hand in case I still can’t manage the fingering.

Tuned as a tenor viola, it’s an octave below the violin, which will allow me to play violin music without transposing it. And I can accompany Mrs m who is learning the violin.

The chip in the polyester of the bridge wasn’t too bad, I can still put on all strings.

Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

I haven’t yet figured out a way to calculate what the string tension actually is.

Does anyone know the relation between string tension and pitch. If I want to raise my pitch by a semitone, how much do I need to increase the string tension?

mollwollfumble said:

The chip in the polyester of the bridge wasn’t too bad, I can still put on all strings.

Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

I haven’t yet figured out a way to calculate what the string tension actually is.

Does anyone know the relation between string tension and pitch. If I want to raise my pitch by a semitone, how much do I need to increase the string tension?

Can you use a different string thickness

mollwollfumble said:

The chip in the polyester of the bridge wasn’t too bad, I can still put on all strings.

Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

I haven’t yet figured out a way to calculate what the string tension actually is.

Does anyone know the relation between string tension and pitch. If I want to raise my pitch by a semitone, how much do I need to increase the string tension?

I’d guess that period^2 was proportional to tension, since s = I/2 at^2 and a is proportional to tension, for a given displacement.

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

The chip in the polyester of the bridge wasn’t too bad, I can still put on all strings.

Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

I haven’t yet figured out a way to calculate what the string tension actually is.

Does anyone know the relation between string tension and pitch. If I want to raise my pitch by a semitone, how much do I need to increase the string tension?

Can you use a different string thickness

I hope so.

So the tension is proportional to the square of the frequency.

Going from E flat 4 to E4. is going from 311 Hz to 329.5 Hz
Tension increases by the ratio (329.5/311)^2 = 12%.

mollwollfumble said:

The chip in the polyester of the bridge wasn’t too bad, I can still put on all strings.

Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

I haven’t yet figured out a way to calculate what the string tension actually is.

Does anyone know the relation between string tension and pitch. If I want to raise my pitch by a semitone, how much do I need to increase the string tension?

I would go for a thinner string. Tension effects all sorts of stuff (playability, height about fingerboard, pressure on the bridge, tuning stability, neck flex…) that can really change the instrument.

mollwollfumble said:

The chip in the polyester of the bridge wasn’t too bad, I can still put on all strings.

Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

I haven’t yet figured out a way to calculate what the string tension actually is.

Does anyone know the relation between string tension and pitch. If I want to raise my pitch by a semitone, how much do I need to increase the string tension?

Sounds like a question for dv.

Michael V said:

mollwollfumble said:

The chip in the polyester of the bridge wasn’t too bad, I can still put on all strings.

Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

I haven’t yet figured out a way to calculate what the string tension actually is.

Does anyone know the relation between string tension and pitch. If I want to raise my pitch by a semitone, how much do I need to increase the string tension?

Sounds like a question for dv.

pfft. Relation of pitch to tension is engineering not Geotech!

But where is dv these days?

On his hols, or has he deserted us?

mollwollfumble said:

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

The chip in the polyester of the bridge wasn’t too bad, I can still put on all strings.

Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

I haven’t yet figured out a way to calculate what the string tension actually is.

Does anyone know the relation between string tension and pitch. If I want to raise my pitch by a semitone, how much do I need to increase the string tension?

Can you use a different string thickness

I hope so.

So the tension is proportional to the square of the frequency.

Going from E flat 4 to E4. is going from 311 Hz to 329.5 Hz
Tension increases by the ratio (329.5/311)^2 = 12%.

OK, when I said period, I of course meant frequency.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Michael V said:

mollwollfumble said:

The chip in the polyester of the bridge wasn’t too bad, I can still put on all strings.

Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

I haven’t yet figured out a way to calculate what the string tension actually is.

Does anyone know the relation between string tension and pitch. If I want to raise my pitch by a semitone, how much do I need to increase the string tension?

Sounds like a question for dv.

pfft. Relation of pitch to tension is engineering not Geotech!

But where is dv these days?

On his hols, or has he deserted us?

Dv said he’ll be peeping in far less for the foreseeable future, due to his workload.

Rule 303 said:

mollwollfumble said:

The chip in the polyester of the bridge wasn’t too bad, I can still put on all strings.

Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

I haven’t yet figured out a way to calculate what the string tension actually is.

Does anyone know the relation between string tension and pitch. If I want to raise my pitch by a semitone, how much do I need to increase the string tension?

I would go for a thinner string. Tension effects all sorts of stuff (playability, height about fingerboard, pressure on the bridge, tuning stability, neck flex…) that can really change the instrument.

Ta. I’m starting to find out about all of those.

What strings are you using?

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Cymek said:

Can you use a different string thickness

I hope so.

So the tension is proportional to the square of the frequency.

Going from E flat 4 to E4. is going from 311 Hz to 329.5 Hz
Tension increases by the ratio (329.5/311)^2 = 12%.

OK, when I said period, I of course meant frequency.

I got that. Thanks.

Bubblecar said:

What strings are you using?

Ah. Lower 3 strings G D A are (supposedly) from a 1/8 cello. I say supposedly because they are longer that I thought they ought to be, the protective wrapping is too far from the bridge. Perhaps if they are the wrong strings then they are at too low a tension. But the tension feels OK.

Highest E string is a shortened A string from a 4/4 cello. That’s the high tension one.

The highest string is pretty well the same diameter as the second highest.

Bubblecar said:

Dv said he’ll be peeping in far less for the foreseeable future, due to his workload.

Probably very wise.

I expect he’ll be back to regular log-in in a week or two :)

mollwollfumble said:

Bubblecar said:

What strings are you using?

Ah. Lower 3 strings G D A are (supposedly) from a 1/8 cello. I say supposedly because they are longer that I thought they ought to be, the protective wrapping is too far from the bridge. Perhaps if they are the wrong strings then they are at too low a tension. But the tension feels OK.

Highest E string is a shortened A string from a 4/4 cello. That’s the high tension one.

The highest string is pretty well the same diameter as the second highest.

Clearly mismatched then, if you’re wanting it a fifth higher.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Michael V said:

mollwollfumble said:

The chip in the polyester of the bridge wasn’t too bad, I can still put on all strings.

Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

I haven’t yet figured out a way to calculate what the string tension actually is.

Does anyone know the relation between string tension and pitch. If I want to raise my pitch by a semitone, how much do I need to increase the string tension?

Sounds like a question for dv.

pfft. Relation of pitch to tension is engineering not Geotech!

But where is dv these days?

On his hols, or has he deserted us?

I would’t call dv a Geotech. Not at any stretch.

Seismologist is where he’s at. That involves waves (sure, and rocks too) but waves, frequencies and what-not are his stock in trade.

Bubblecar said:

mollwollfumble said:

Bubblecar said:

What strings are you using?

Ah. Lower 3 strings G D A are (supposedly) from a 1/8 cello. I say supposedly because they are longer that I thought they ought to be, the protective wrapping is too far from the bridge. Perhaps if they are the wrong strings then they are at too low a tension. But the tension feels OK.

Highest E string is a shortened A string from a 4/4 cello. That’s the high tension one.

The highest string is pretty well the same diameter as the second highest.

Clearly mismatched then, if you’re wanting it a fifth higher.

Yes, shortening the string by about 30% ought to have made the pitch higher, but it doesn’t want to play higher.

mollwollfumble said:

Bubblecar said:

mollwollfumble said:

Ah. Lower 3 strings G D A are (supposedly) from a 1/8 cello. I say supposedly because they are longer that I thought they ought to be, the protective wrapping is too far from the bridge. Perhaps if they are the wrong strings then they are at too low a tension. But the tension feels OK.

Highest E string is a shortened A string from a 4/4 cello. That’s the high tension one.

The highest string is pretty well the same diameter as the second highest.

Clearly mismatched then, if you’re wanting it a fifth higher.

Yes, shortening the string by about 30% ought to have made the pitch higher, but it doesn’t want to play higher.

Nah, this is a bad idea, Moll. You’ll end up twisting the neck or tearing the tailpiece or something.

Rule 303 said:

mollwollfumble said:

Bubblecar said:

Clearly mismatched then, if you’re wanting it a fifth higher.

Yes, shortening the string by about 30% ought to have made the pitch higher, but it doesn’t want to play higher.

Nah, this is a bad idea, Moll. You’ll end up twisting the neck or tearing the tailpiece or something.

In that case. Time to call in the experts.

Has the end come off yet?

mollwollfumble said:

Rule 303 said:

mollwollfumble said:

Yes, shortening the string by about 30% ought to have made the pitch higher, but it doesn’t want to play higher.

Nah, this is a bad idea, Moll. You’ll end up twisting the neck or tearing the tailpiece or something.

In that case. Time to call in the experts.

C4 or duct tape usually does the trick

mollwollfumble said:

Bubblecar said:

mollwollfumble said:

Ah. Lower 3 strings G D A are (supposedly) from a 1/8 cello. I say supposedly because they are longer that I thought they ought to be, the protective wrapping is too far from the bridge. Perhaps if they are the wrong strings then they are at too low a tension. But the tension feels OK.

Highest E string is a shortened A string from a 4/4 cello. That’s the high tension one.

The highest string is pretty well the same diameter as the second highest.

Clearly mismatched then, if you’re wanting it a fifth higher.

Yes, shortening the string by about 30% ought to have made the pitch higher, but it doesn’t want to play higher.

?

Not sure what you mean. Pitch is determined by string thickness, tension and vibrating length.

It’s probably pointless to point out that pitch is dependent on length of string, the tension, the thickness and the stiffness.

So, I might as well also add that the total tension on a concert grand piano at A-440 is close to 30 tons.

HTH

Bubblecar said:

mollwollfumble said:

Bubblecar said:

Clearly mismatched then, if you’re wanting it a fifth higher.

Yes, shortening the string by about 30% ought to have made the pitch higher, but it doesn’t want to play higher.

?

Not sure what you mean. Pitch is determined by string thickness, tension and vibrating length.

If you’re happy with the lower three strings, why not just buy your highest string from the same set?

Ian said:

It’s probably pointless to point out that pitch is dependent on length of string, the tension, the thickness and the stiffness.

So, I might as well also add that the total tension on a concert grand piano at A-440 is close to 30 tons.

HTH

Where length of string = vibrating length. I don’t know what moll means by “made the string 30% shorter”. Obviously won’t make any difference if the vibrating length remains the same.

Bubblecar said:

Ian said:

It’s probably pointless to point out that pitch is dependent on length of string, the tension, the thickness and the stiffness.

So, I might as well also add that the total tension on a concert grand piano at A-440 is close to 30 tons.

HTH

Where length of string = vibrating length. I don’t know what moll means by “made the string 30% shorter”. Obviously won’t make any difference if the vibrating length remains the same.

Distance between nut and bridge, of course. I’m not that stupid.

Bubblecar said:

Bubblecar said:

mollwollfumble said:

Yes, shortening the string by about 30% ought to have made the pitch higher, but it doesn’t want to play higher.

?

Not sure what you mean. Pitch is determined by string thickness, tension and vibrating length.

If you’re happy with the lower three strings, why not just buy your highest string from the same set?

Because the 1/8 cello is tuned a fifth lower, there is no higher string in the set.

mollwollfumble said:

Bubblecar said:

Ian said:

It’s probably pointless to point out that pitch is dependent on length of string, the tension, the thickness and the stiffness.

So, I might as well also add that the total tension on a concert grand piano at A-440 is close to 30 tons.

HTH

Where length of string = vibrating length. I don’t know what moll means by “made the string 30% shorter”. Obviously won’t make any difference if the vibrating length remains the same.

Distance between nut and bridge, of course. I’m not that stupid.

;)

Ian said:

It’s probably pointless to point out that pitch is dependent on length of string, the tension, the thickness and the stiffness.

So, I might as well also add that the total tension on a concert grand piano at A-440 is close to 30 tons.

HTH

I ought to be getting close to 50 kg here. I wish I had a simple way to check that. There probably is a simple way, using trig.

All I can suggest is that you get a complete set of strings from the cello size closest to your instrument.

Bubblecar said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Michael V said:

Sounds like a question for dv.

pfft. Relation of pitch to tension is engineering not Geotech!

But where is dv these days?

On his hols, or has he deserted us?

Dv said he’ll be peeping in far less for the foreseeable future, due to his workload.

I think he has strayed into a suburb with a lot of roundabouts.

PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

pfft. Relation of pitch to tension is engineering not Geotech!

But where is dv these days?

On his hols, or has he deserted us?

Dv said he’ll be peeping in far less for the foreseeable future, due to his workload.

I think he has strayed into a suburb with a lot of roundabouts.

snigger

Bubblecar said:

All I can suggest is that you get a complete set of strings from the cello size closest to your instrument.

Could a complete set of guitar strings work? Guitar strings are tuned in fourths instead of fifths, so some would be tuned up and some down. But they probably wouldn’t work with a bow.

> Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

Hold on. For cellos, the highest string is supposed to have higher tension, about 25% higher, and the other strings all the same tension. That’s a bit of a relief.

mollwollfumble said:

> Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

Hold on. For cellos, the highest string is supposed to have higher tension, about 25% higher, and the other strings all the same tension. That’s a bit of a relief.

Um. Somehow the distance from bridge to nut is 50 cm which is 2 cm longer than it ought to be, no idea how that happened. Dang. That’s an incredible error, how could I miscalculate by that much (1 cm can be ascribed to different 1/8 cello sizes). Also, the original design had it shorter. I’m running 2.5 to 3 cm longer than the original design. Dang

Not great for either string tension of fingering. Darn.

Calculated string tensions, if the strings I got really were for a 1/8 cello as they were supposed to be, from lowest G2 to highest string E4. 9.8, 10.5, 13.1, 20.4 kg. So the top string tension really is twice as high as the others. The strings can take the tension, the body can take the tension short term. My fingers can’t handle 20.4 kg.

If the strings I got were the wrong ones, for a 1/4 cello, tensions would be 8.6, 9.6, 11.7 and 20.4 kg. I could live with the first three easily.

If the top string on the viola was long enough – which it wouldn’t be – that 20.4kg would be reduced to 8.6 kg. Second top string on the viola would be 12.9 kg, nice. Just two problems – not long enough and it would probably snap as it’s only designed for 5.6 kg. The second highest string of a 17 inch viola (exceptionally large size) may just be long enough and the load would drop to 9.5 kg.

Guitar string?

E4 is a standard guitar string tuning, the top string. But somewhere between 98% and 99% of guitars have string lengths much greater than this. Only really weird instruments have string lengths near 50 cm, such as the Harley Benton ST-Junior guitar, the mandola, the baritone ukulele, and the tenor banjo. Not looking so great.

mollwollfumble said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

Hold on. For cellos, the highest string is supposed to have higher tension, about 25% higher, and the other strings all the same tension. That’s a bit of a relief.

Um. Somehow the distance from bridge to nut is 50 cm which is 2 cm longer than it ought to be, no idea how that happened. Dang. That’s an incredible error, how could I miscalculate by that much (1 cm can be ascribed to different 1/8 cello sizes). Also, the original design had it shorter. I’m running 2.5 to 3 cm longer than the original design. Dang

Not great for either string tension of fingering. Darn.

Calculated string tensions, if the strings I got really were for a 1/8 cello as they were supposed to be, from lowest G2 to highest string E4. 9.8, 10.5, 13.1, 20.4 kg. So the top string tension really is twice as high as the others. The strings can take the tension, the body can take the tension short term. My fingers can’t handle 20.4 kg.

If the strings I got were the wrong ones, for a 1/4 cello, tensions would be 8.6, 9.6, 11.7 and 20.4 kg. I could live with the first three easily.

If the top string on the viola was long enough – which it wouldn’t be – that 20.4kg would be reduced to 8.6 kg. Second top string on the viola would be 12.9 kg, nice. Just two problems – not long enough and it would probably snap as it’s only designed for 5.6 kg. The second highest string of a 17 inch viola (exceptionally large size) may just be long enough and the load would drop to 9.5 kg.

Guitar string?

E4 is a standard guitar string tuning, the top string. But somewhere between 98% and 99% of guitars have string lengths much greater than this. Only really weird instruments have string lengths near 50 cm, such as the Harley Benton ST-Junior guitar, the mandola, the baritone ukulele, and the tenor banjo. Not looking so great.

Hmmm…

You might find silicone rubber bass strings, or flat-wound ‘classical’ guitar strings, will do the job, but you’re really sitting between the two pitch-wise.

Do you know what string diameters you’re looking for? Really good instrument shops often have a huge selection of strings and can build you a set by diameter.

Rule 303 said:

mollwollfumble said:

mollwollfumble said:

> Trouble now is that the top string doesn’t want to tune high enough. When I do try to tune it high enough, the string tension is about twice as high as for the other strings, which makes fingering very difficult.

Hold on. For cellos, the highest string is supposed to have higher tension, about 25% higher, and the other strings all the same tension. That’s a bit of a relief.

Um. Somehow the distance from bridge to nut is 50 cm which is 2 cm longer than it ought to be, no idea how that happened. Dang. That’s an incredible error, how could I miscalculate by that much (1 cm can be ascribed to different 1/8 cello sizes). Also, the original design had it shorter. I’m running 2.5 to 3 cm longer than the original design. Dang

Not great for either string tension of fingering. Darn.

Calculated string tensions, if the strings I got really were for a 1/8 cello as they were supposed to be, from lowest G2 to highest string E4. 9.8, 10.5, 13.1, 20.4 kg. So the top string tension really is twice as high as the others. The strings can take the tension, the body can take the tension short term. My fingers can’t handle 20.4 kg.

If the strings I got were the wrong ones, for a 1/4 cello, tensions would be 8.6, 9.6, 11.7 and 20.4 kg. I could live with the first three easily.

If the top string on the viola was long enough – which it wouldn’t be – that 20.4kg would be reduced to 8.6 kg. Second top string on the viola would be 12.9 kg, nice. Just two problems – not long enough and it would probably snap as it’s only designed for 5.6 kg. The second highest string of a 17 inch viola (exceptionally large size) may just be long enough and the load would drop to 9.5 kg.

Guitar string?

E4 is a standard guitar string tuning, the top string. But somewhere between 98% and 99% of guitars have string lengths much greater than this. Only really weird instruments have string lengths near 50 cm, such as the Harley Benton ST-Junior guitar, the mandola, the baritone ukulele, and the tenor banjo. Not looking so great.

Hmmm…

You might find silicone rubber bass strings, or flat-wound ‘classical’ guitar strings, will do the job, but you’re really sitting between the two pitch-wise.

Do you know what string diameters you’re looking for? Really good instrument shops often have a huge selection of strings and can build you a set by diameter.

Have found a guitar string that might work for E4 pitch on a 500 mm length.

D’Addario, Acoustic or Electric guitar, plain steel, lock twist, PL016 with a unit weight of .00005671 lb/in.
That ought to give it a tension between 11 and 12 kg, in line with my estimate of 11.7 kg for the string next to it.

Costs come out at $6 for one string, $6.50 for two strings, $10.50 for five strings, $19 for ten strings.
I just bought one.

Fingers crossed.

Nearly finished. Just a little more sanding, filling gaps with glue, replacing the top string and trimming strings to length.

mollwollfumble said:

Nearly finished. Just a little more sanding, filling gaps with glue, replacing the top string and trimming strings to length.

Wow! How does it sound?

Michael V said:

mollwollfumble said:

Nearly finished. Just a little more sanding, filling gaps with glue, replacing the top string and trimming strings to length.

Wow! How does it sound?

It actually sounds like a cross between a violin and a cello, which is what I was after. It has the brightness of a violin and the mellowness of a cello.

The bottom three strings sound great, I’m still waiting for a better top string. Overall, it’s better than the sound from a typical viola.

The sound is about comparable in quality to that of a low-priced violin – by that I mean that it doesn’t have any of the nuances of a Strad.

I’d like to record someone who knows how to play and post it on the web. I don’t want to record my playing because I couldn’t do it justice.

Well done!

:)

mollwollfumble said:

Michael V said:

mollwollfumble said:

Nearly finished. Just a little more sanding, filling gaps with glue, replacing the top string and trimming strings to length.

Wow! How does it sound?

It actually sounds like a cross between a violin and a cello, which is what I was after. It has the brightness of a violin and the mellowness of a cello.

The bottom three strings sound great, I’m still waiting for a better top string. Overall, it’s better than the sound from a typical viola.

The sound is about comparable in quality to that of a low-priced violin – by that I mean that it doesn’t have any of the nuances of a Strad.

I’d like to record someone who knows how to play and post it on the web. I don’t want to record my playing because I couldn’t do it justice.

That is pretty amazing

Brindabellas said:

mollwollfumble said:

Michael V said:

Wow! How does it sound?

It actually sounds like a cross between a violin and a cello, which is what I was after. It has the brightness of a violin and the mellowness of a cello.

…

That is pretty amazing

Thanks all. For a moment just now I thought I’d found another instument like mine. But not quite.

Mine is supported off a strap like a guitar. Until today i hadn’t found another example. Today I finally ran across the descrition “da spalla”, as in “viola da spalla” and “violoncello da spalla” or “da spala”.

The “da spalla” turns out to be a small cello supported off a shoulder strap. It looks almost the same as my instrument. But it is actually tuned differently. It’s just a small cello turned sideways, not tuned a fifth above the cello.

Pieces of music written for the da spalla include pieces by Bach, Messiaen, and others.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cello_da_spalla

Well, up to trying to get a top string for the third time. Trying d’Addagio P013 this time (previous was much thicker P016, but I couldn’t tune it high enough).

And guess what? The winder for the tuning peg is dead, slipping gears. I may have a spare, given that I only needed 4 of the initial batch of 6 tuning pegs. But a 50% chance that I’ll have to install it backwards, which may be impossible.

Wait, the winder seems to have fixed itself, fingers crossed. And I can get the P013 up to E, yippee, but it feels like a dangerous tension at the tuning peg, perhaps it’s binding on the nut?

OK, slowly getting the pitch up for all the strings, change one and all the others go out.

mollwollfumble said:

Well, up to trying to get a top string for the third time. Trying d’Addagio P013 this time (previous was much thicker P016, but I couldn’t tune it high enough).

And guess what? The winder for the tuning peg is dead, slipping gears. I may have a spare, given that I only needed 4 of the initial batch of 6 tuning pegs. But a 50% chance that I’ll have to install it backwards, which may be impossible.

Wait, the winder seems to have fixed itself, fingers crossed. And I can get the P013 up to E, yippee, but it feels like a dangerous tension at the tuning peg, perhaps it’s binding on the nut?

OK, slowly getting the pitch up for all the strings, change one and all the others go out.

Still not quite there, 1 semitone low on the highest string E4.

Leant something today. one semitone is 100 cents. That means, fingers crossed, I can mark out a chromatic scale on the fingerboard using GuitarTuna by counting in intervals of 100.

How far out is out of tune? Obviously 50 and 25, quarter tone and eighth tone are out of tune. But is 10 cents out too much? What about 5? or 3?

2 cents out is about the limit of perfect pitch of the best listeners. I don’t have perfect pitch. Mrs m does, but not perfect perfect pitch, there are variations.

I can see that I’ll have to do a bit of research on this instrument about how fast the strings go out of pitch: a) overnight, b) when tuned, c) when played.

Perhaps step 1 is to try out the piano tuning on GuitarTuna.

mollwollfumble said:

mollwollfumble said:

Well, up to trying to get a top string for the third time. Trying d’Addagio P013 this time (previous was much thicker P016, but I couldn’t tune it high enough).

And guess what? The winder for the tuning peg is dead, slipping gears. I may have a spare, given that I only needed 4 of the initial batch of 6 tuning pegs. But a 50% chance that I’ll have to install it backwards, which may be impossible.

Wait, the winder seems to have fixed itself, fingers crossed. And I can get the P013 up to E, yippee, but it feels like a dangerous tension at the tuning peg, perhaps it’s binding on the nut?

OK, slowly getting the pitch up for all the strings, change one and all the others go out.

Still not quite there, 1 semitone low on the highest string E4.

Leant something today. one semitone is 100 cents. That means, fingers crossed, I can mark out a chromatic scale on the fingerboard using GuitarTuna by counting in intervals of 100.

How far out is out of tune? Obviously 50 and 25, quarter tone and eighth tone are out of tune. But is 10 cents out too much? What about 5? or 3?

2 cents out is about the limit of perfect pitch of the best listeners. I don’t have perfect pitch. Mrs m does, but not perfect perfect pitch, there are variations.

I can see that I’ll have to do a bit of research on this instrument about how fast the strings go out of pitch: a) overnight, b) when tuned, c) when played.

Perhaps step 1 is to try out the piano tuning on GuitarTuna.

> Perhaps step 1 is to try out the piano tuning on GuitarTuna.

Did that, every note on piano that matches a string from guitar or cello was either exactly on pitch or 2 cents high. Good. that means I can trust the piano.

PS, my concern here is that even though Mrs m has perfect pitch and I don’t, for the first year that she was learning violin the pitch of her playing was so horribly out I was screaming internally on every note, then for the second year I was screaming internally on every second note, the third year on about every fourth note, we’re onto her fourth year of playing now and I scream internally at how out of pitch she is on about one note in eight. I want to avoid that for myself.

So 20 cents out is part for the course. 30 cents out is OK if consistent.

I’ve been trying GuitarTuna app against piano and violin.
Piano is consistently +1 to +2 units high.
Violin is consistently +3 units high on all strings.

Tenor viola da spalla. Before tuning.
-23
-24
-17
3 semitones low.
I have a feeling that that means that it goes flat horribly fast.

I need to check whether GuitarTuna is actually measuring cents.
Ah, no. One unit on GuitarTuna is actually 10 cents.

So Mrs m’s violin is actually tuned too high by nearly a third of a semitone. Aagh!

After tuning
G +2
D +2
A -2
E -11
Dang, winder on tuning peg slips if I try a higher tension on the top string.

Got to try a thinner top string. Again.

I already tried a 4/4 Cello A string.
Then a lighter weight Guitar P16 (from tension tables)
Then a Guitar P13 (heaviest string rated at E4)
Now to buy a Guitar P11 (tension at E4 less than P13 at D4).
After car trip, getting wet, temperature changes 3/4 hours later. Not playing.
G -3
D -2
A -2
E -15
Definitely dropping in pitch.
New string. Tuning peg winder totally dead. Phew, I lucked out, I have a replacement winder. Replaced winder. Retuned.

Yippee. First time I’ve been able to tune all strings high. About +4 on all. I’ll let it settle.

Pity one of the screws is loose (I unscrewed the wrong winder at first).
Also pity that after final tuning I found one part on the bench top (Oh well, it only affects appearance).

> Yippee. First time I’ve been able to tune all strings high. About +4 on all. I’ll let it settle.

Was wondering why I was able to play three strings at once. Top string wasn’t sitting on the bridge properly. Can now tune top string too high if I want. At last!

Sound of top string a bit weak. Other strings sound great if I press down hard enough with the bow.

Serious fingering problems due to arthritis. It looks like I may end up using only two fingers.

Did I mention?

Yesterday afternoon, mollwollfumble’s polyester “tenor viola da spalla” with guitar headstock and steel thrust rod was finally completed.

We went to see this guy last night:

Stephen Isserlis

Half way through the last movement of the Shostakovich cello concerto, his G-string broke :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

We went to see this guy last night:

Stephen Isserlis

Half way through the last movement of the Shostakovich cello concerto, his G-string broke :)

The Rev Dodgson said:

We went to see this guy last night:

Stephen Isserlis

Half way through the last movement of the Shostakovich cello concerto, his G-string broke :)

Bummer.

Michael V said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

We went to see this guy last night:

Stephen Isserlis

Half way through the last movement of the Shostakovich cello concerto, his G-string broke :)

Bummer.

So there was air on his G-string, was there?

Woodie said:

Michael V said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

We went to see this guy last night:

Stephen Isserlis

Half way through the last movement of the Shostakovich cello concerto, his G-string broke :)

Bummer.

So there was air on his G-string, was there?

Don’t know about air, there was plenty of hair.

The guy looks like he should be playing Led-Zep, not this classical stuff.

Full description of how to make it. Now on

https://www.scribd.com/document/383162763/Viola-as-Bowed-Guitar

mollwollfumble said:

Full description of how to make it. Now on

https://www.scribd.com/document/383162763/Viola-as-Bowed-Guitar

Is that Andre Rieu ?

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

Full description of how to make it. Now on

https://www.scribd.com/document/383162763/Viola-as-Bowed-Guitar

Is that Andre Rieu ?

No. Andre Rieu is my brother in law.

mollwollfumble said:

Full description of how to make it. Now on

https://www.scribd.com/document/383162763/Viola-as-Bowed-Guitar

Full marks for effort, but I can’t see you convincing many people that polyester is as good as wood for these purposes.

Bubblecar said:

Full marks for effort, but I can’t see you convincing many people that polyester is as good as wood for these purposes.

I couldn’t convince an Eskimo to buy matches.

Bubblecar said:

mollwollfumble said:

Full description of how to make it. Now on

https://www.scribd.com/document/383162763/Viola-as-Bowed-Guitar

Full marks for effort, but I can’t see you convincing many people that polyester is as good as wood for these purposes.

There are so many music instruments made of plastic: piccolo, the entire recorder family, clarinet, bassoon, electric violin, electric viola, electric cello, electric bass, and drum skins come to mind.

Most of these are made of ABS, but polyester has a nicer tone.

mollwollfumble said:

Bubblecar said:

mollwollfumble said:

Full description of how to make it. Now on

https://www.scribd.com/document/383162763/Viola-as-Bowed-Guitar

Full marks for effort, but I can’t see you convincing many people that polyester is as good as wood for these purposes.

There are so many music instruments made of plastic: piccolo, the entire recorder family, clarinet, bassoon, electric violin, electric viola, electric cello, electric bass, and drum skins come to mind.

Most of these are made of ABS, but polyester has a nicer tone.

This is an interesting link. All the familiar brass instruments are now being made in plastic. But how good are they? See the discussion and hear the instruments on:
Are plastic band instruments just a gimmick