Ive been thinking about micro grids the last few days.

So far around 5 energy saving ideas.

1 Heat loss through open electric air exhaust vents in bathrooms and kitchens which are open all day during winter and other cold days.

Most don’t have shutters that close when the electric air exhaust vents are not in use.

Heat rises so an open vent in the ceiling will cause some heat to escape over a 24 hour period, which can be measured.

Cool droughts come in underneath each door pushing the rising heat to move even faster through the open exhaust vents, the heat loss problem is made worse by open vents in ceilings.

An air exhaust with automatic shutters stops that heat from escaping along with installing door wind stoppers, saving some energy

Door wind stoppers have been in use of years, but doors in new homes open still have a noticeable gap which can be 2cm or more, which becomes multiplied with each door with gaps and using open exhaust fans with new shutters.

opps, should be

Door wind stoppers have been in use of years, but doors in new homes still have a noticeable gap which can be 2cm or more, which becomes multiplied with each door with gaps and each open exhaust fan vent without any shutters.

2

Using temperature sensors inside and outside fitted to heaters, split system heating and cooling air conditioners

for summer

As the sun tracks over the sky, temperatures can fluctuate, but mostly temperatures rise in the afternoon.

An outside temp sensor fitted to the thermostat of a heater or split system aircon can monitor outside temperatures going up and reduce the heating inside keeping the set temp the same.

3 for summer

Smart aircons in summer could read outside temps and reduce the cooling in unison as the outside temp drops

for people with no aircons, temp sensors could turn on ceiling exhaust fans in summer as the outside temp drops and turn off when a set temp is reached .

or the two methods could be used together as the temp drops.

Tau.Neutrino said:

3 for summer

Smart aircons in summer could read outside temps and reduce the cooling in unison as the outside temp drops

for people with no aircons, temp sensors could turn on ceiling exhaust fans in summer as the outside temp drops and turn off when a set temp is reached .

or the two methods could be used together as the temp drops.

why not just use internal thermostats to keep the inside temp stable as they do now. what benefit is having outside thermostats or sensors? seems just to be an added layer of complexity.

4 for summer solar powered fans installed at the highest point on the roof could extract the rising hot air from roof cavities lowering the roof cavity temperature.

ChrispenEvan said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

3 for summer

Smart aircons in summer could read outside temps and reduce the cooling in unison as the outside temp drops

for people with no aircons, temp sensors could turn on ceiling exhaust fans in summer as the outside temp drops and turn off when a set temp is reached .

or the two methods could be used together as the temp drops.

why not just use internal thermostats to keep the inside temp stable as they do now. what benefit is having outside thermostats or sensors? seems just to be an added layer of complexity.

This.

Tau.Neutrino said:

4 for summer solar powered fans installed at the highest point on the roof could extract the rising hot air from roof cavities lowering the roof cavity temperature.

Don’t have to power such fans.

Tau.Neutrino said:

4 for summer solar powered fans installed at the highest point on the roof could extract the rising hot air from roof cavities lowering the roof cavity temperature.

http://efficiencymatrix.com.au/does-roof-ventilation-work/

answer: No.

5 For peak times

The micro grid would have a loop system to throttle power back heating or cooling over the whole grid when max load is reached preventing a black out.

ChrispenEvan said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

4 for summer solar powered fans installed at the highest point on the roof could extract the rising hot air from roof cavities lowering the roof cavity temperature.

http://efficiencymatrix.com.au/does-roof-ventilation-work/

answer: No.

That site has no comparative data.

What happens in a car on a hot day?

Wind up all the windows on hot day the car heats up.

Open the windows and it cools down.

Its quite simple.

Tau.Neutrino said:

What happens in a car on a hot day?

Wind up all the windows on hot day the car heats up.

Open the windows and it cools down.

Its quite simple.

Then why do so many people fuck it up?

Tau.Neutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

4 for summer solar powered fans installed at the highest point on the roof could extract the rising hot air from roof cavities lowering the roof cavity temperature.

http://efficiencymatrix.com.au/does-roof-ventilation-work/

answer: No.

That site has no comparative data.

no worries, show me your comparative data that backs your claim then.

Tau.Neutrino said:

What happens in a car on a hot day?

Wind up all the windows on hot day the car heats up.

Open the windows and it cools down.

Its quite simple.

well, the size of the window openings compared to the volume of the car interior is a tad different than roof ventilators and the volume of roof cavity. maybe a better comparison would be one of those little solar fans that go in a window gap for a car.

ChrispenEvan said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

http://efficiencymatrix.com.au/does-roof-ventilation-work/

answer: No.

That site has no comparative data.

no worries, show me your comparative data that backs your claim then.

you might have to wait a while as validation would require some Government funding and some time to do the research.

There might be comparative data out there.

I’d like to see it.

1 a roof cavity with no whirlies

2 a roof cavity with whirlies

3 a roof cavity with solar driven fans

4 a roof cavity designed to maximize heat rising with solar driven fans

5 a roof cavity designed to maximize heat rising with solar driven fans and a cooling tower assisted cold air system

6 all the above with other possibilities as they arise.

ChrispenEvan said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

What happens in a car on a hot day?

Wind up all the windows on hot day the car heats up.

Open the windows and it cools down.

Its quite simple.

well, the size of the window openings compared to the volume of the car interior is a tad different than roof ventilators and the volume of roof cavity. maybe a better comparison would be one of those little solar fans that go in a window gap for a car.

oe the original vent quarter panes or whatever they were called?

roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

What happens in a car on a hot day?

Wind up all the windows on hot day the car heats up.

Open the windows and it cools down.

Its quite simple.

well, the size of the window openings compared to the volume of the car interior is a tad different than roof ventilators and the volume of roof cavity. maybe a better comparison would be one of those little solar fans that go in a window gap for a car.

oe the original vent quarter panes or whatever they were called?

these things

Tau.Neutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

That site has no comparative data.

no worries, show me your comparative data that backs your claim then.

you might have to wait a while as validation would require some Government funding and some time to do the research.

There might be comparative data out there.

I’d like to see it.

1 a roof cavity with no whirlies

2 a roof cavity with whirlies

3 a roof cavity with solar driven fans

4 a roof cavity designed to maximize heat rising with solar driven fans

5 a roof cavity designed to maximize heat rising with solar driven fans and a cooling tower assisted cold air system

6 all the above with other possibilities as they arise.

Which could be reversed when needed.

So if its warmer outside the solar assisted fans spin the other way heating up the roof cavity.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

ChrispenEvan said:

no worries, show me your comparative data that backs your claim then.

you might have to wait a while as validation would require some Government funding and some time to do the research.

There might be comparative data out there.

I’d like to see it.

1 a roof cavity with no whirlies

2 a roof cavity with whirlies

3 a roof cavity with solar driven fans

4 a roof cavity designed to maximize heat rising with solar driven fans

5 a roof cavity designed to maximize heat rising with solar driven fans and a cooling tower assisted cold air system

6 all the above with other possibilities as they arise.

Which could be reversed when needed.

So if its warmer outside the solar assisted fans spin the other way heating up the roof cavity.

Reversible fans?

be cheaper to design a proper solar passive house and not have all these gadgets that add cost and will break down.

roughbarked said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

you might have to wait a while as validation would require some Government funding and some time to do the research.

There might be comparative data out there.

I’d like to see it.

1 a roof cavity with no whirlies

2 a roof cavity with whirlies

3 a roof cavity with solar driven fans

4 a roof cavity designed to maximize heat rising with solar driven fans

5 a roof cavity designed to maximize heat rising with solar driven fans and a cooling tower assisted cold air system

6 all the above with other possibilities as they arise.

Which could be reversed when needed.

So if its warmer outside the solar assisted fans spin the other way heating up the roof cavity.

Reversible fans?

Why not?

ChrispenEvan said:

be cheaper to design a proper solar passive house and not have all these gadgets that add cost and will break down.

The KISS principle. Defeats unnecessary complication.

Tau.Neutrino said:

roughbarked said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Which could be reversed when needed.

So if its warmer outside the solar assisted fans spin the other way heating up the roof cavity.

Reversible fans?

Why not?

No reason. Was expecting your explanations of pros and cons.

ChrispenEvan said:

be cheaper to design a proper solar passive house and not have all these gadgets that add cost and will break down.

I’ll include different solar passive houses in the research.

If you are thinking about micro grids, why the focus on energy saving? Optimising the efficiency of heating and cooling is obviously a good idea regardless of where the energy is coming from.

As for micro grids, I don’t see the attraction. Mega grids can operate as a large number of micro grids when that is appropriate, but also are much better at dealing with the big problem of microgrids; i.e. when you have high demand and low supply.

I wonder if electricity companies want buildings to have hot roof cavities so air cons have to be on so the electricity companies can make more money?

The Rev Dodgson said:

If you are thinking about micro grids, why the focus on energy saving? Optimising the efficiency of heating and cooling is obviously a good idea regardless of where the energy is coming from.

As for micro grids, I don’t see the attraction. Mega grids can operate as a large number of micro grids when that is appropriate, but also are much better at dealing with the big problem of microgrids; i.e. when you have high demand and low supply.

Microgrids in the outback.

Mega grids are in the cities and suburbs.

Different markets.

Open up the research to include better passive designs and better passive /electric assisted designs.

Tau.Neutrino said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

If you are thinking about micro grids, why the focus on energy saving? Optimising the efficiency of heating and cooling is obviously a good idea regardless of where the energy is coming from.

As for micro grids, I don’t see the attraction. Mega grids can operate as a large number of micro grids when that is appropriate, but also are much better at dealing with the big problem of microgrids; i.e. when you have high demand and low supply.

Microgrids in the outback.

Mega grids are in the cities and suburbs.

Different markets.

Open up the research to include better passive designs and better passive /electric assisted designs.

I’m not sure that people in the outback should be so disadvantaged; especially when much of the infrastructure is already in place.

The Rev Dodgson said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

If you are thinking about micro grids, why the focus on energy saving? Optimising the efficiency of heating and cooling is obviously a good idea regardless of where the energy is coming from.

As for micro grids, I don’t see the attraction. Mega grids can operate as a large number of micro grids when that is appropriate, but also are much better at dealing with the big problem of microgrids; i.e. when you have high demand and low supply.

Microgrids in the outback.

Mega grids are in the cities and suburbs.

Different markets.

Open up the research to include better passive designs and better passive /electric assisted designs.

I’m not sure that people in the outback should be so disadvantaged; especially when much of the infrastructure is already in place.

The are outbacks in all countries not just in Australia.

Some overseas counties like North Korea could benefit from micro grids if they decide to politically change.

So its a world market.

Also micro grids on the moon and on mars will require much more research, more efficiencies etc

Another thing to consider is future generations.

They will require even more efficiencies.

So doing ground work will help them more.

And I think insulation materials could be better.

Building materials could be better.

3D print installation materials to make more surface areas to help trap heat and cold more.

More research with new materials.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Ive been thinking about micro grids the last few days.

So far around 5 energy saving ideas.

1 Heat loss through open electric air exhaust vents in bathrooms and kitchens which are open all day during winter and other cold days.

Most don’t have shutters that close when the electric air exhaust vents are not in use.

Heat rises so an open vent in the ceiling will cause some heat to escape over a 24 hour period, which can be measured.

Cool droughts come in underneath each door pushing the rising heat to move even faster through the open exhaust vents, the heat loss problem is made worse by open vents in ceilings.

An air exhaust with automatic shutters stops that heat from escaping along with installing door wind stoppers, saving some energy

Door wind stoppers have been in use of years, but doors in new homes open still have a noticeable gap which can be 2cm or more, which becomes multiplied with each door with gaps and using open exhaust fans with new shutters.

Have you considered the problem of carbon dioxide build-up inside houses? There is a mathematical link (via the Peclet number) between heat loss and CO2 loss.

Old houses used to have vents to allow the carbon dioxide to escape, but I have been noticing that these are often blocked off and new houses don’t have them at all.

From wikipedia:
“Occupational CO2 exposure limits have been set in the United States at 5,000 ppm for an eight-hour period. At this CO2 concentration, International Space Station crew experienced headaches, lethargy, mental slowness, emotional irritation, and sleep disruption. Studies in animals at this concentration have demonstrated kidney calcification and bone loss after eight weeks of exposure. A study of humans exposed in 2.5 hour sessions demonstrated significant effects on cognitive abilities at concentrations as low as 1,000 ppm.”

“Poor ventilation is one of the main causes of excessive CO2 concentrations in closed spaces. ASHRAE Standard ventilation rates may result in indoor concentrations up to 2,500 ppm. Concentrations in poorly ventilated spaces can be found even higher than this at a range of 3,000 to 4,000 ppm.”

Humidity levels could be controlled more by the latest water extraction from air technologies.

Tau.Neutrino said:

And I think insulation materials could be better.

Building materials could be better.

3D print installation materials to make more surface areas to help trap heat and cold more.

More research with new materials.

Sure, although implementation is well behind research anyway.

But again, I this isn’t specific to microgrids. It applies just as much to big cities, where most of the people are.

mollwollfumble said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Ive been thinking about micro grids the last few days.

So far around 5 energy saving ideas.

1 Heat loss through open electric air exhaust vents in bathrooms and kitchens which are open all day during winter and other cold days.

Most don’t have shutters that close when the electric air exhaust vents are not in use.

Heat rises so an open vent in the ceiling will cause some heat to escape over a 24 hour period, which can be measured.

Cool droughts come in underneath each door pushing the rising heat to move even faster through the open exhaust vents, the heat loss problem is made worse by open vents in ceilings.

An air exhaust with automatic shutters stops that heat from escaping along with installing door wind stoppers, saving some energy

Door wind stoppers have been in use of years, but doors in new homes open still have a noticeable gap which can be 2cm or more, which becomes multiplied with each door with gaps and using open exhaust fans with new shutters.

Have you considered the problem of carbon dioxide build-up inside houses? There is a mathematical link (via the Peclet number) between heat loss and CO2 loss.

Old houses used to have vents to allow the carbon dioxide to escape, but I have been noticing that these are often blocked off and new houses don’t have them at all.

From wikipedia:
“Occupational CO2 exposure limits have been set in the United States at 5,000 ppm for an eight-hour period. At this CO2 concentration, International Space Station crew experienced headaches, lethargy, mental slowness, emotional irritation, and sleep disruption. Studies in animals at this concentration have demonstrated kidney calcification and bone loss after eight weeks of exposure. A study of humans exposed in 2.5 hour sessions demonstrated significant effects on cognitive abilities at concentrations as low as 1,000 ppm.”

“Poor ventilation is one of the main causes of excessive CO2 concentrations in closed spaces. ASHRAE Standard ventilation rates may result in indoor concentrations up to 2,500 ppm. Concentrations in poorly ventilated spaces can be found even higher than this at a range of 3,000 to 4,000 ppm.”

Yes, ventilation is required for air quality.

and ventilation is required for keeping windows collecting dew which pools on windows sills that then can attract mold.

The dew collects under certain conditions.

>>>Have you considered the problem of carbon dioxide build-up inside houses? There is a mathematical link (via the Peclet number) between heat loss and CO2 loss.

Yes there has to be air flow that meets standards.

No air flow creates bacteria build up, sleepy symptoms, smelly rooms, mold on window sills etc

Tau.Neutrino said:

No air flow creates bacteria build up, sleepy symptoms, smelly rooms, mold on window sills etc

A more interactive passive design between rooms and roof cavities moving air around cavities in external / internal walls etc, mixing inside and outside as required.

I’m sure many such designs and many different ones exist out there.

Building standards that might be different in each State.

Many other things to consider.

I’m not an expert in this field just have a causal interest.

Fresh air is a must have.

Tau.Neutrino said:

2 Using temperature sensors inside and outside fitted to heaters, split system heating and cooling air conditioners

for summer

As the sun tracks over the sky, temperatures can fluctuate, but mostly temperatures rise in the afternoon.

An outside temp sensor fitted to the thermostat of a heater or split system aircon can monitor outside temperatures going up and reduce the heating inside keeping the set temp the same.

3 for summer

Smart aircons in summer could read outside temps and reduce the cooling in unison as the outside temp drops

for people with no aircons, temp sensors could turn on ceiling exhaust fans in summer as the outside temp drops and turn off when a set temp is reached .

or the two methods could be used together as the temp drops.

4 for summer solar powered fans installed at the highest point on the roof could extract the rising hot air from roof cavities lowering the roof cavity temperature.

The simplest solution is to wear clothing appropriate for the weather, warm clothing on cold days and light clothing on hot days. I’m old enough to make the claim that it’s criminal to try to keep the indoor temperature constant for fewer than eight people. Within a 10 degree temperature band is perfectly adequate.

A lot can be done with just opening and closing of windows.

Also, summer in Jamaica I found that high ceilings with ceiling fans is startlingly effective. Ceilings have to be at least 4 m high in the middle for this to work, higher is better.

Rooftop vents both do and don’t work. The familiar wind-powered whirligig vent is no better than a simple opening of the same size protected against rain entry. But the simple opening does work, and is extremely commonly used for factories.

Now, let’s go back to “using temperature sensors inside and outside”. Yes! But you need more. You also need a wind speed sensor outside. Some would say you also need a humidity sensor outside. I say you need a carbon dioxide sensor and humidity sensor inside. The “wind chill” factor depends a lot on clothing, and is most effective in hot weather when less clothing is worn; it can be calculated .

There’s also a difference between workplaces and homes. For homes, the night time temperature is important. For workplaces in summer, you can open the vents at nightime to capture the cold air to minimise cooling during the day.

At CSIRO I was working on the concept of making furniture that would passively (no external power source, using latent heat of melting) heat up when the weather was cold and cool down when the weather was hot. It can be done, but I wouldn’t vouch for its effectiveness as a replacement for air conditioning.

A simple fix is to keep internal doors shut in cold weather and only have the ideal temperature in the rooms you’re using all the time. Ignore the cat,
it’ll tell you if it wants you to open a door.

• hot weather, no wind, cooler inside than outside – close windows & vents and switch on air conditioner or fan.
• hot weather, windy – open windows to fullest extent.
• cold weather, windy – close windows & vents and switch on air conditioner or gas heater.
• pleasant weather, light breeze – open windows to fullest extent.
• excessive internal CO2 – open vents wide to clear it.
• excessive internal humidity, lower external humidity – open windows and vents wide to clear it, irrespective of temperature, or use air conditioner to clear it.

All this could be done automatically.

> I’ve been thinking about micro grids the last few days.

Talk to me about micro-grids.

mollwollfumble said:

> I’ve been thinking about micro grids the last few days.

Talk to me about micro-grids.

One of things about micro grids is similar to how the internet evolved around the idea that if part of the network was taken down the rest of it would still function.

With mega grids damage can be done by lightning and storm damage, wind damage, bush fires, vehicle accidents into poles etc, earthquakes, volcanoes and lava flows, by peak loads in winter and summer that can lead to black outs that can melt equipment, and by geomagnetic solar storms triggering solar flares on the sun that can wipe out grids from high energy particles and other threats are possible too, such as a meteor hit in the upper atmosphere that took out a large area in Russia a few years ago, that could have been a whole few suburbs if was elsewhere.

Micro grids can limit damage depending on their scale, so its helps to know what the worst case scenario is depending on the conditions in each country.

>>One of things about micro grids is similar to how the internet evolved around the idea that if part of the network was taken down the rest of it would still function.<<

Well, that worked well.

buffy said:

>>One of things about micro grids is similar to how the internet evolved around the idea that if part of the network was taken down the rest of it would still function.<<

Well, that worked well.

Yes, the black market, crime, porn, face book, trolls, putdowns, bullies, ads and ads, subscriptions and more monthly subscriptions, more ads, virus malware ransomware, pedophilia rings, and the list goes on…..Net neutrality, privacy issues, government spying….Memes and more memes…

Tau.Neutrino said:

mollwollfumble said:

> I’ve been thinking about micro grids the last few days.

Talk to me about micro-grids.

One of things about micro grids is similar to how the internet evolved around the idea that if part of the network was taken down the rest of it would still function.

With mega grids damage can be done by lightning and storm damage, wind damage, bush fires, vehicle accidents into poles etc, earthquakes, volcanoes and lava flows, by peak loads in winter and summer that can lead to black outs that can melt equipment, and by geomagnetic solar storms triggering solar flares on the sun that can wipe out grids from high energy particles and other threats are possible too, such as a meteor hit in the upper atmosphere that took out a large area in Russia a few years ago, that could have been a whole few suburbs if was elsewhere.

Micro grids can limit damage depending on their scale, so its helps to know what the worst case scenario is depending on the conditions in each country.

I like that idea.

I’d never thought of micro-grids in that way. I’d thought of them only as feeding power to the grid when there was an excess and taking power from the grid when there wasn’t enough. It hadn’t occurred to me that they could safeguard anything more than the few directly attached to the generator.

I thought micro grids were those things which are popping in Africa and India where infrastructure hasn’t been built. Some solar panels to run mobile phones and some lights. Only little things but they have a huge impact.

Micro grids could also be used on space ships and in smaller scales in the bodies of robots, cyborgs, cars, trucks, and mining equipment etc.

Ill add links as I find them

General background information

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microgrid
https://www.energy.gov/articles/how-microgrids-work
https://www.energy.gov/oe/services/technology-development/smart-grid/role-microgrids-helping-advance-nation-s-energy-syst-0

Solar storms

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/space/how-we-ll-safeguard-earth-solar-storm-catastrophe-n760021
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-damage-could-be-caused-by-a-massive-solar-storm-25627394/

And with just a mobile phone you can see what is going on in the world and kids can continue learning after dark and productivity for literal cottage industries is increased.

AwesomeO said:

And with just a mobile phone you can see what is going on in the world and kids can continue learning after dark and productivity for literal cottage industries is increased.

The whole body of the phone could be its battery, companies are looking at it

Same concept for cars is being developed now.

>>>productivity for literal cottage industries is increased.

Yes.

Look up “islanding.”

btm said:

Look up “islanding.”

No :)

sibeen said:

btm said:

Look up “islanding.”

No :)

Well obviously he didn’t mean you. We expect you to be across this stuff.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Ill add links as I find them

General background information

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microgrid
https://www.energy.gov/articles/how-microgrids-work
https://www.energy.gov/oe/services/technology-development/smart-grid/role-microgrids-helping-advance-nation-s-energy-syst-0

Solar storms

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/space/how-we-ll-safeguard-earth-solar-storm-catastrophe-n760021
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-damage-could-be-caused-by-a-massive-solar-storm-25627394/

Power a jail on a microgrid. Now that’s a good idea.

> on-site generation and combined heat and power systems

Yes. Combined heat and power generation is a great way to use a microgrid in a cold country. All forms of power generation produce waste heat. Some more than others, least perhaps short wind power. Utilising that waste heat is known as cogeneration. It’s essentially the most efficient use of all types of fuel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogeneration

I still haven’t seen anything to explain the focus on micro grids rather than continent wide grids, which could do everything micro grids can, plus a whole lot more.

The Rev Dodgson said:

I still haven’t seen anything to explain the focus on micro grids rather than continent wide grids, which could do everything micro grids can, plus a whole lot more.

It’s the vibe, it’s Elon Musk, it’s planet saving…

The Rev Dodgson said:

I still haven’t seen anything to explain the focus on micro grids rather than continent wide grids, which could do everything micro grids can, plus a whole lot more.

A lot of areas around the world are prone to Natural disasters such as ASIA and Cyclones that hit Cuba and America

Hurricane Irma did much damage to local infrastuctures and megagrids were hit hard prompting companies Like Tesla to offer portable micro grids and batteries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Irma

So Disaster recovery is one.

Remote areas are another.

Reliability is another one.

Smart Grid and Microgrids—the Hard Solution for Asia’s At-risk Megacities

What is the difference between smart grid and microgrid?

War a can take out a countries mega grid by targeting power stations.

It would be a lot more difficult to deal with a country that had micro grids making up its mega grid.

> It would be a lot more difficult to deal with a country that had micro grids making up its mega grid.

See film “Ocean’s 11” from 1960.

Energy savings made by any means can always be picked up and used elsewhere or kept as real energy savings until needed etc

Say energy is saved by one means that equals a hundred homes then that can be put into other homes, shops, factories, offices, street lights or heaps of other things.

Energy providers need to not see that as a threat but as opportunities to develop.

I can see micro grids being rolled out more by mega grid providers as backup in peaks, and for unprecedented storm damage.

Look at South Australia to see an example of that.

Another energy saving that can be achieved is by using latent heat.

As the heat of the day increases reduce inside heating by the amount outside and by the latent inside the walls or brickwork etc

Around 2 or three the heating can be turned down as the latent heat heats up the building and then around 7 or 8 as the latent heat is decreasing then turn up the heating again.

Building materials could be improved to absorb more of the latent heat and release it more slowly to cover the evening more or the latent heat could be trapped and stored by other technologies.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Another energy saving that can be achieved is by using latent heat.

As the heat of the day increases reduce inside heating by the amount outside and by the latent inside the walls or brickwork etc

Around 2 or three the heating can be turned down as the latent heat heats up the building and then around 7 or 8 as the latent heat is decreasing then turn up the heating again.

Building materials could be improved to absorb more of the latent heat and release it more slowly to cover the evening more or the latent heat could be trapped and stored by other technologies.

I said that. I was working on that for CSIRO.

mollwollfumble said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Another energy saving that can be achieved is by using latent heat.

As the heat of the day increases reduce inside heating by the amount outside and by the latent inside the walls or brickwork etc

Around 2 or three the heating can be turned down as the latent heat heats up the building and then around 7 or 8 as the latent heat is decreasing then turn up the heating again.

Building materials could be improved to absorb more of the latent heat and release it more slowly to cover the evening more or the latent heat could be trapped and stored by other technologies.

I said that. I was working on that for CSIRO.

Ah, yes you did too. I remember that now, my apologies.

Tau.Neutrino said:

mollwollfumble said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Another energy saving that can be achieved is by using latent heat.

As the heat of the day increases reduce inside heating by the amount outside and by the latent inside the walls or brickwork etc

Around 2 or three the heating can be turned down as the latent heat heats up the building and then around 7 or 8 as the latent heat is decreasing then turn up the heating again.

Building materials could be improved to absorb more of the latent heat and release it more slowly to cover the evening more or the latent heat could be trapped and stored by other technologies.

I said that. I was working on that for CSIRO.

Ah, yes you did too. I remember that now, my apologies.

I will make a note of that and credit that to you and CSIRO.

Another energy saving idea would be reducing the air flow in a home, but to something that is still within an acceptable standard, but fine tuning like that requires monitoring and sensors.

For example in this building they are large air gaps under the doors,
Air gaps in each window but with mesh screens
There no wall vents, instead the air vents are built into where the ceiling meets the walls and in that they are mesh screens also
Some air gaps around the window frames
The bathroom has an open style exhaust, no shutters
The kitchen has an open style air exhaust, no shutters
Single brick, with insulation in the roof.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Another energy saving idea would be reducing the air flow in a home, but to something that is still within an acceptable standard, but fine tuning like that requires monitoring and sensors.

For example in this building they are large air gaps under the doors,
Air gaps in each window but with mesh screens
There no wall vents, instead the air vents are built into where the ceiling meets the walls and in that they are mesh screens also
Some air gaps around the window frames
The bathroom has an open style exhaust, no shutters
The kitchen has an open style air exhaust, no shutters
Single brick, with insulation in the roof.

that’s for winter to reduce the cold air flow

in summer you would want the air flow to increase

My apologies Mollwollfumble

My fault for forgetting.

Too much information flowing past.

Still its very interesting to think about convergence of technologies.

I have a latent heat question before I go off to sleep.

Extracting drinking water from dry desert air is no longer a pipe dream

That article mentions a substance called MOF-303 a powder which has a massive surface-area-to-mass ratio.

From the article

The surface area of one gram of MOF-303 is larger than a football field.

“It’s very porous. It has an enormous amount of space inside. The surface area of one gram of this MOF can cover several soccer fields,” Mr Kapustin said.

“So you can imagine that you can store substantial amounts of gas within the pores of this material.”

==

The question.

Could this material be used in walls or built into walls to capture and use latent heat, or is the material not suitable?

Tau.Neutrino said:

I have a latent heat question before I go off to sleep.

Extracting drinking water from dry desert air is no longer a pipe dream

That article mentions a substance called MOF-303 a powder which has a massive surface-area-to-mass ratio.

From the article

The surface area of one gram of MOF-303 is larger than a football field.

“It’s very porous. It has an enormous amount of space inside. The surface area of one gram of this MOF can cover several soccer fields,” Mr Kapustin said.

“So you can imagine that you can store substantial amounts of gas within the pores of this material.”

==

The question.

Could this material be used in walls or built into walls to capture and use latent heat, or is the material not suitable?

I can’t comment on this material.

But some zeolites have been used. IIRC the laumontite-heulandite transition.

What about solar powered peltier-effect devices (and lots of them)?

Tau.Neutrino said:

I have a latent heat question before I go off to sleep.

Extracting drinking water from dry desert air is no longer a pipe dream

That article mentions a substance called MOF-303 a powder which has a massive surface-area-to-mass ratio.

From the article

The surface area of one gram of MOF-303 is larger than a football field.

“It’s very porous. It has an enormous amount of space inside. The surface area of one gram of this MOF can cover several soccer fields,” Mr Kapustin said.

“So you can imagine that you can store substantial amounts of gas within the pores of this material.”

==

The question.

Could this material be used in walls or built into walls to capture and use latent heat, or is the material not suitable?

I spent a bit of time at CSIRO working on something related. Instead of using materials to capture water from dry air, the principle was to make building surface materials that would hold moisture that had been deliberately applied so that the day’s heat would evaporate the moisture cooling the building.

Making the building surface material was the easy part. Anything with a very large surface area would do. So either a granular of porous material.

The hard part was finding somewhere in the world where the strategy would be useful. It would have to be a place with high temperatures, low humidity and unlimited water.

mollwollfumble said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

I have a latent heat question before I go off to sleep.

Extracting drinking water from dry desert air is no longer a pipe dream

That article mentions a substance called MOF-303 a powder which has a massive surface-area-to-mass ratio.

From the article

The surface area of one gram of MOF-303 is larger than a football field.

“It’s very porous. It has an enormous amount of space inside. The surface area of one gram of this MOF can cover several soccer fields,” Mr Kapustin said.

“So you can imagine that you can store substantial amounts of gas within the pores of this material.”

==

The question.

Could this material be used in walls or built into walls to capture and use latent heat, or is the material not suitable?

I spent a bit of time at CSIRO working on something related. Instead of using materials to capture water from dry air, the principle was to make building surface materials that would hold moisture that had been deliberately applied so that the day’s heat would evaporate the moisture cooling the building.

Making the building surface material was the easy part. Anything with a very large surface area would do. So either a granular of porous material.

The hard part was finding somewhere in the world where the strategy would be useful. It would have to be a place with high temperatures, low humidity and unlimited water.

Most of the work was being done on this by a student at the University of NSW just two or so years ago. So look for a recent paper from there.