Date: 13/06/2018 23:04:10
From: roughbarked
ID: 1239399
Subject: I'm only human
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Date: 13/06/2018 23:05:17
From: roughbarked
ID: 1239400
Subject: re: I'm only human

Left open for reasons which you may want to examine.

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Date: 14/06/2018 06:18:25
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1239418
Subject: re: I'm only human

I have two responses to that.

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Date: 14/06/2018 08:44:16
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1239444
Subject: re: I'm only human

Well, more than two, really.

The first is one that’s been bugging me for a week or two.

Another take on the same issue is “find the fish” from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life.

The dogs and the fish are limited try their physiology and psychology. The meaning of life for a fish should be the same as that for a human, but is it? What would a fish reply if you asked it about the meaning of life?

Just as dogs and fish are limited by physiology and psychology, so must humans be limited by their physiology and psychology. In a way that has not and cannot be overcome by tools. But how? I’ve tried and failed over the past few weeks to understand how we are limited, not by our environment but by our own make-up.

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Date: 14/06/2018 08:48:48
From: roughbarked
ID: 1239445
Subject: re: I'm only human

Mostly we are limited by the others around us.

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Date: 14/06/2018 09:54:51
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1239471
Subject: re: I'm only human

roughbarked said:


Mostly we are limited by the others around us.

That’s too easy. That’s like saying that the scientific abilities of a dog are limited by the dogs around it. Not true.

My second take on this is to consider “The strange case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde”, the original version in the book from 1886. Dr Jekyll is attempting to overcome his human deficiencies, to become a better person. But in the process ends up becoming subhuman. I’m not sure if the following quote is from the book or not. The quote goes something like:

“How often it is that those to attempt to exceed humanity end up falling below it”.

We’ve see this so often in history. In white supremacy, in master race, in eugenics, in apartheid, in social darwinism. Those who attempt to make humans into superhumans usually end up turning humans into subhumans. Quite an insight into the future for 1886.

This immediately begs the question “How Hardwired Is Human Behavior?”, see for instance the discussion on https://hbr.org/1998/07/how-hardwired-is-human-behavior which discusses among other things, whether it’s true that “You can take the person out of the Stone Age, not the Stone Age out of the person”.

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Date: 14/06/2018 10:12:40
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1239481
Subject: re: I'm only human

My third take on this is about how humans see themselves.

Some people when asked about themselves will describe their successes.

Other people when asked about themselves will complain about how circumstances make things difficult.

But it’s said that a few people when asked about themselves will describe themselves as an average human being. Not only describe themselves that way but also think about themselves that way.

It’s very rare for a person to have an objective understanding of their abilities and limitations, and be able to directly compare those with the abilities and limitations of others. Those who can …

… may be complete a’holes.

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Date: 14/06/2018 10:13:52
From: Divine Angel
ID: 1239483
Subject: re: I'm only human

Not me. I’m fucking amazing.

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Date: 14/06/2018 10:17:01
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1239485
Subject: re: I'm only human

Divine Angel said:


Not me. I’m fucking amazing.

Agree.

My fourth take on this is these song lyrics.

Don’t be afraid of an animal
Let him howl, let him yowl, let him bawl
He’s only trying to communicate
For an animal’s only human after all.

Don’t let an animal frighten you
Let him nip, let him scratch till he’s through
He only wants to be a pal of yours
He is probably less an animal than you!

Tigers are intuitively gracious
Even when their jaws are extra spacious
Bears are only trying hard to please you
Love is why they really want to squeeze you!

Don’t be afraid of an animal
Let him run. Let him leap, let him crawl
He’s only trying to keep up with you
For an animal’s only human after all!

Don’t let an animal frighten you
Let him nip, let him scratch till he’s done
It’s just his way of saying play with me
For an animal likes to have a bit of fun

Rhinos are ridiculously gentle
Elephants in love are elemental
Meeting a hyena will delight you
He’s so busy laughing he can’t bite you!

Be sure to welcome an animal
Be polite, be at home should he call
He likes you better than he likes himself
For an animal’s only human after all!

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Date: 14/06/2018 10:19:59
From: Divine Angel
ID: 1239486
Subject: re: I'm only human

Because no one asked, here’s Delta Goodrem’s song Only Human. Fun fact: it’s one of the few Delta songs I don’t like.

https://youtu.be/lC8×8KwID4w

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Date: 14/06/2018 10:23:36
From: transition
ID: 1239487
Subject: re: I'm only human

what though if the thread title is about how forgiving people are, and the effects of that on a sense of adequacy.

you know human, the concept of, largely unconscious, can lend to brutal behavior controls.

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Date: 14/06/2018 10:31:13
From: Divine Angel
ID: 1239488
Subject: re: I'm only human

I’d also like to add that some humans are absolute wastes of space. If they’re the result of the sperm that won, can you imagine the rejects?

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Date: 14/06/2018 10:41:14
From: kii
ID: 1239489
Subject: re: I'm only human

Divine Angel said:


I’d also like to add that some humans are absolute wastes of space. If they’re the result of the sperm that won, can you imagine the rejects?

Herr Dotard?

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Date: 14/06/2018 10:42:49
From: transition
ID: 1239491
Subject: re: I'm only human

transition said:


what though if the thread title is about how forgiving people are, and the effects of that on a sense of adequacy.

you know human, the concept of, largely unconscious, can lend to brutal behavior controls.

include of brutal behavior controls, alienation, isolation, and loneliness.

there is no way to make a perfect thinking machine, and there is no perfect thought. There are of course idealizations, which are probably somewhat essential.

i’ve been thinking about fade lately, like from long periods of driving, how the body map goes numb from a type of sensory deprivation. Well, more I moved on to think about how restricted and impoverished actualization of desires results in loneliness.

not just fade, but the threat of fade.

I bet everyone that frequents this forum, is, in some way, fighting the fade, parrying against loneliness.

the structure of minds needs be maintained.

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Date: 14/06/2018 10:54:59
From: Cymek
ID: 1239495
Subject: re: I'm only human

Perhaps we are limited by our monkey brains and cannot overcome our basic nature no matter what discoveries we make and technology we create. Is everything bad about humans just a case of circumstances, lack of resources, and if everyone had them we’d become better or are our brains wired to be the way we are.

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Date: 14/06/2018 11:00:25
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1239496
Subject: re: I'm only human

Divine Angel said:


I’d also like to add that some humans are absolute wastes of space. If they’re the result of the sperm that won, can you imagine the rejects?

I’ve heard it said that every human has at least one redeeming quality. One.

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Date: 14/06/2018 11:01:35
From: Cymek
ID: 1239497
Subject: re: I'm only human

Divine Angel said:


I’d also like to add that some humans are absolute wastes of space. If they’re the result of the sperm that won, can you imagine the rejects?

Yes you do wonder if we are actually the same species some times, some people are like YY chromo rejects from Fury 161

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Date: 14/06/2018 11:05:58
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1239499
Subject: re: I'm only human

mollwollfumble said:


Divine Angel said:

I’d also like to add that some humans are absolute wastes of space. If they’re the result of the sperm that won, can you imagine the rejects?

I’ve heard it said that every human has at least one redeeming quality. One.

And they all have their price, it could be money, it could be power, it could be a passion or it could be a ring, a gold ring, a precious ring that has them all.

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Date: 14/06/2018 11:09:05
From: Cymek
ID: 1239501
Subject: re: I'm only human

I also find it very interesting that in science fiction quite often sentient androids created by us have more redeeming qualities than most humans.

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Date: 14/06/2018 13:13:49
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1239542
Subject: re: I'm only human

Ego trimming can be possible if you can see yourself from a distance.

I don’t like larger than life egos that can evolve from not paying attention to inner emotions.

Why?

Because too much ego can effect observation.

There are many other things that can effect observations like, bias, religious ideologies, misinformation, fake news etc.

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Date: 14/06/2018 14:25:36
From: SCIENCE
ID: 1239562
Subject: re: I'm only human

it’s what douglas richard hofstadter said

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Date: 14/06/2018 14:33:45
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1239564
Subject: re: I'm only human

Anyone know what Pablo Picasso’s middle name is?

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Date: 14/06/2018 17:10:48
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1239625
Subject: re: I'm only human

Cymek said:


I also find it very interesting that in science fiction quite often sentient androids created by us have more redeeming qualities than most humans.

That’s deliberate. One nice exception is the TV series Extant where some sentient androids have more redeeming features than humans and some have fewer.

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Date: 15/06/2018 20:14:58
From: roughbarked
ID: 1240193
Subject: re: I'm only human

Divine Angel said:


Not me. I’m fucking amazing.

That’s why you are divine.

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Date: 16/06/2018 19:39:58
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1240626
Subject: re: I'm only human

mollwollfumble said:


Well, more than two, really.

The first is one that’s been bugging me for a week or two.

Just as dogs and fish are limited by physiology and psychology, so must humans be limited by their physiology and psychology. In a way that has not and cannot be overcome by tools. But how? I’ve tried and failed over the past few weeks to understand how we are limited, not by our environment but by our own make-up.

One human limitation is: we can’t see sound and we have no tools that can see sound.

It’s not a limitation of physics. Because sound waves of different frequencies come at us from different directions in different quantities, just like light.

It’s a limitation only of biology and psychology.

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Date: 16/06/2018 19:45:49
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1240630
Subject: re: I'm only human

mollwollfumble said:


mollwollfumble said:

Well, more than two, really.

The first is one that’s been bugging me for a week or two.

Just as dogs and fish are limited by physiology and psychology, so must humans be limited by their physiology and psychology. In a way that has not and cannot be overcome by tools. But how? I’ve tried and failed over the past few weeks to understand how we are limited, not by our environment but by our own make-up.

One human limitation is: we can’t see sound and we have no tools that can see sound.

It’s not a limitation of physics. Because sound waves of different frequencies come at us from different directions in different quantities, just like light.

It’s a limitation only of biology and psychology.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

If you mean that we can’t see it in the same way that we see light, then it is a limitation of physics.

If you mean that we can’t perceive its source, magnitude, and frequency, then I don’t know why you are spending so much time making a musical instrument.

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Date: 16/06/2018 19:46:40
From: sibeen
ID: 1240631
Subject: re: I'm only human

mollwollfumble said:


mollwollfumble said:

Well, more than two, really.

The first is one that’s been bugging me for a week or two.

Just as dogs and fish are limited by physiology and psychology, so must humans be limited by their physiology and psychology. In a way that has not and cannot be overcome by tools. But how? I’ve tried and failed over the past few weeks to understand how we are limited, not by our environment but by our own make-up.

One human limitation is: we can’t see sound and we have no tools that can see sound.

It’s not a limitation of physics. Because sound waves of different frequencies come at us from different directions in different quantities, just like light.

It’s a limitation only of biology and psychology.

A microphone connected to an amp connected to an oscilloscope can do a reasonable facsimile.

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Date: 16/06/2018 19:48:48
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1240634
Subject: re: I'm only human

sibeen said:


mollwollfumble said:

mollwollfumble said:

Well, more than two, really.

The first is one that’s been bugging me for a week or two.

Just as dogs and fish are limited by physiology and psychology, so must humans be limited by their physiology and psychology. In a way that has not and cannot be overcome by tools. But how? I’ve tried and failed over the past few weeks to understand how we are limited, not by our environment but by our own make-up.

One human limitation is: we can’t see sound and we have no tools that can see sound.

It’s not a limitation of physics. Because sound waves of different frequencies come at us from different directions in different quantities, just like light.

It’s a limitation only of biology and psychology.

A microphone connected to an amp connected to an oscilloscope can do a reasonable facsimile.

There are programs thst react to music as well to make trippy transformations. Man.

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Date: 16/06/2018 19:51:50
From: Arts
ID: 1240641
Subject: re: I'm only human

AwesomeO said:


sibeen said:

mollwollfumble said:

One human limitation is: we can’t see sound and we have no tools that can see sound.

It’s not a limitation of physics. Because sound waves of different frequencies come at us from different directions in different quantities, just like light.

It’s a limitation only of biology and psychology.

A microphone connected to an amp connected to an oscilloscope can do a reasonable facsimile.

There are programs thst react to music as well to make trippy transformations. Man.

a friend of the BU and WG has also managed to hook up a tesla coil to a keyboard, and you can certainly see that sound

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Date: 16/06/2018 21:04:50
From: transition
ID: 1240685
Subject: re: I'm only human

mollwollfumble said:


mollwollfumble said:

Well, more than two, really.

The first is one that’s been bugging me for a week or two.

Just as dogs and fish are limited by physiology and psychology, so must humans be limited by their physiology and psychology. In a way that has not and cannot be overcome by tools. But how? I’ve tried and failed over the past few weeks to understand how we are limited, not by our environment but by our own make-up.

One human limitation is: we can’t see sound and we have no tools that can see sound.

It’s not a limitation of physics. Because sound waves of different frequencies come at us from different directions in different quantities, just like light.

It’s a limitation only of biology and psychology.

well, it is the physics, you need transducers, in eyes it’s rods and cones I guess (antennas), + lenses etc. There’s filtering in that, shapes the output/input. Then front-end processing, to suit the sensor.

ears works over quite a few octaves, if you want go down and up more there are design requirements.

a lot of the structure you interpret the world is from the limitations, it shapes the impression.

separation of senses and the limitations are a good thing, essential.

I think in some way humans do see sound. I think we feel-see a lot of things.

since when anyway did see mean just the impression from eyes.

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Date: 16/06/2018 21:25:59
From: transition
ID: 1240692
Subject: re: I'm only human

it’s a funny cartoon by the way, when you consider all those captive canines that experience the domestic thing in a model, subordinate sense.

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Date: 16/06/2018 22:04:46
From: Michael V
ID: 1240702
Subject: re: I'm only human

sibeen said:


mollwollfumble said:

mollwollfumble said:

Well, more than two, really.

The first is one that’s been bugging me for a week or two.

Just as dogs and fish are limited by physiology and psychology, so must humans be limited by their physiology and psychology. In a way that has not and cannot be overcome by tools. But how? I’ve tried and failed over the past few weeks to understand how we are limited, not by our environment but by our own make-up.

One human limitation is: we can’t see sound and we have no tools that can see sound.

It’s not a limitation of physics. Because sound waves of different frequencies come at us from different directions in different quantities, just like light.

It’s a limitation only of biology and psychology.

A microphone connected to an amp connected to an oscilloscope can do a reasonable facsimile.

This.

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Date: 16/06/2018 22:16:31
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1240712
Subject: re: I'm only human

> A microphone connected to an amp connected to an oscilloscope can do a reasonable facsimile.

That’s a single pixel. I want to see sound in at least 1028*768 pixels.

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Date: 16/06/2018 22:20:17
From: sibeen
ID: 1240713
Subject: re: I'm only human

mollwollfumble said:


> A microphone connected to an amp connected to an oscilloscope can do a reasonable facsimile.

That’s a single pixel. I want to see sound in at least 1028*768 pixels.

What? A sound is a frequency, or multiple of frequencies if you prefer, that varies in amplitude in the time domain. That’s exactly what an oscilloscope represents. It’s as if it’s made for examining something like this.

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Date: 16/06/2018 22:46:19
From: transition
ID: 1240730
Subject: re: I'm only human

do rainbows really exist?

i’ve taken pictures of them and they look the same in the pictures

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Date: 17/06/2018 02:35:33
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1240788
Subject: re: I'm only human

sibeen said:


mollwollfumble said:

> A microphone connected to an amp connected to an oscilloscope can do a reasonable facsimile.

That’s a single pixel. I want to see sound in at least 1028*768 pixels.

What? A sound is a frequency, or multiple of frequencies if you prefer, that varies in amplitude in the time domain. That’s exactly what an oscilloscope represents. It’s as if it’s made for examining something like this.

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to explain.

A sound is a pressure wave. In air the sound wave has time dependence, frequency, and direction. In exactly the same way, light is a wave that has time dependence, frequency and direction. Every non-quantum thing we can physically do with light, we can do with sound and visa versa. In physical theory. We even refer to “phonons” as the acoustic quantum equivalent of “photons”.

It’s the direction of sound that I’m talking about. Light approaches us from millions of directions at once. In exactly the same way, sound approaches us from millions of directions at once. So we can plot the sources of approaching light and call it a photograph.

Similarly, physics tells us that we can plot the sources of approaching sound to make something exactly analogous to a photograph.

But we don’t. Our biology and psychology stops us from thinking about sound in this way. It’s a limitation of being only human that we haven’t yet come to grips with. Because we have two ears we are fooled into thinking that stereo reproduces the directionality of sound, it doesn’t. Because we can move our head, we think that although stereo doesn’t suffice, 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound does. It doesn’t. 7.1 surround sound is only the equivalent of a photograph with just 8 pixels.

Which leads me to wonder if there’s a way to overcome this biological and psychological barrier with tools. It’s hard for me to think about and I’m far from sure that I’ve got the answer correct.

One starting point could be a three-axis accelerometer producing a signal at least 40,0000 times a second. Computers can operate at 900 MHz and above, so that’s no problem. Sound is a directional pressure wave so induces a directional vibration in the accelerometer. A three-axis accelerometer can exactly pinpoint the directionality of a single sound source. But it gets fooled if there are two sound sources of the same frequency.

With a second three-axis accelerometer, a measurement of the phase difference between the two accelerometers helps to separate out two independent sound sources.

This is the point at which being “only human” fails me. For arbitrarily many sound sources, how many three-axis accelerometers would be needed, and what software would be needed? I haven’t a clue. Perhaps only four arranged in a tetrahedron, perhaps as many as the number of independent sound sources, perhaps even that isn’t enough.

Perhaps there’s a way of focussing sound, not like the lens of a camera, too much dispersion and diffraction, but like the grazing incidence reflectors of an X-ray telescope. Focussing not to get a single point but to get an image, imposed onto a sheet of microscopic accelerometers (or equivalent size microphones).

Or perhaps a rigid sphere is enough, studded with a million or more microphones each pointed in a different direction, using the sound shadow to aid directionality. Or would that be fooled by 7.1 surround sound?

If the “only human” aspect of pixels of sound gives me cognitive trouble, what about pixels of smell?

¿Huh? you may think, smell isn’t a wave. It isn’t … but …

Smell is a gradient, and a gradient always has a unique three-dimensional directionality. So there’s nothing in physics to stop me from building a tool detecting the smell concentration gradient accurately enough to make a picture of the direction that smell is coming from. In this case though, multiple sources of the same smell could probably not be separated out, a single direction for a single molecule. The direction would jitter around as a function of the local air speed.

Our “only human” limitations of smelling and hearing ability stop most of us from thinking about these.

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Date: 17/06/2018 10:14:07
From: Arts
ID: 1240841
Subject: re: I'm only human

mollwollfumble said:

So there’s nothing in physics to stop me from building a tool detecting the smell concentration gradient accurately enough to make a picture of the direction that smell is coming from. In this case though, multiple sources of the same smell could probably not be separated out, a single direction for a single molecule. The direction would jitter around as a function of the local air speed.

Our “only human” limitations of smelling and hearing ability stop most of us from thinking about these.

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Date: 17/06/2018 11:19:20
From: transition
ID: 1240859
Subject: re: I'm only human

not to be forgetting the combination radar array, if you like, is steerable, mobile, and repositionable.

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Date: 17/06/2018 11:48:52
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1240868
Subject: re: I'm only human

Arts said:


mollwollfumble said:
So there’s nothing in physics to stop me from building a tool detecting the smell concentration gradient accurately enough to make a picture of the direction that smell is coming from. In this case though, multiple sources of the same smell could probably not be separated out, a single direction for a single molecule. The direction would jitter around as a function of the local air speed.

Our “only human” limitations of smelling and hearing ability stop most of us from thinking about these.

Yes. That’s exactly what I mean for sound.

Something better would be needed for smell.

transition said:


not to be forgetting the combination radar array, if you like, is steerable, mobile, and repositionable.

Yes. That’s what is needed for smell.

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Date: 17/06/2018 11:49:46
From: roughbarked
ID: 1240869
Subject: re: I'm only human

mollwollfumble said:


Arts said:

mollwollfumble said:
So there’s nothing in physics to stop me from building a tool detecting the smell concentration gradient accurately enough to make a picture of the direction that smell is coming from. In this case though, multiple sources of the same smell could probably not be separated out, a single direction for a single molecule. The direction would jitter around as a function of the local air speed.

Our “only human” limitations of smelling and hearing ability stop most of us from thinking about these.

Yes. That’s exactly what I mean for sound.

Something better would be needed for smell.

transition said:


not to be forgetting the combination radar array, if you like, is steerable, mobile, and repositionable.

Yes. That’s what is needed for smell.

Ornithologists use a dish around the microphone.

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Date: 17/06/2018 11:53:05
From: transition
ID: 1240871
Subject: re: I'm only human

mollwollfumble said:


Arts said:

mollwollfumble said:
So there’s nothing in physics to stop me from building a tool detecting the smell concentration gradient accurately enough to make a picture of the direction that smell is coming from. In this case though, multiple sources of the same smell could probably not be separated out, a single direction for a single molecule. The direction would jitter around as a function of the local air speed.

Our “only human” limitations of smelling and hearing ability stop most of us from thinking about these.

Yes. That’s exactly what I mean for sound.

Something better would be needed for smell.

transition said:


not to be forgetting the combination radar array, if you like, is steerable, mobile, and repositionable.

Yes. That’s what is needed for smell.

but it is, being local to something or downwind gives information of the direction of the source. Add the fixed other senses on the array, jointly steerable and repositionable, it’s impressive really.

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