Date: 21/06/2018 00:31:29
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242326
Subject: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

>>For any states still able to get their hands on single-use shopping bags, the party comes to an end today in Woolworths, and on July 1 in Coles and IGA stores nationwide.

Also on July 1, Queensland and Western Australia will be joining the Northern Territory, the ACT, Tasmania and South Australia in a total statewide ban on the bags.

So with the writing on the wall, we can either pay for heavy-duty plastic bags, or start bringing our own.<<

http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-06-20/plastic-bag-ban-options/9874474

I went to Wollies today and they were selling hundreds of green re-usable bags, clearly Wollies were making good profits, but is it just a scam to extract more money from the consumer?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 00:44:01
From: party_pants
ID: 1242327
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 00:47:28
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1242328
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

Yes, unlike the OP I don’t think it is any conspiracy to sell bags. Just a lot of people who like me, ordinarily go in, do shopping and expecting bags getting caught short and saying yeah, I’ll buy some bags.

Why they being the supermarkets decided to do so is down to pressure from environmentalists, I don’t think it was down to any government legislation.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 00:50:50
From: party_pants
ID: 1242329
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

AwesomeO said:


party_pants said:

For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

Yes, unlike the OP I don’t think it is any conspiracy to sell bags. Just a lot of people who like me, ordinarily go in, do shopping and expecting bags getting caught short and saying yeah, I’ll buy some bags.

Why they being the supermarkets decided to do so is down to pressure from environmentalists, I don’t think it was down to any government legislation.

Pretty sure it is law here. Legislation is down to pressure from environment groups.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 00:53:01
From: party_pants
ID: 1242330
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Ignore me. I was wrong.

I looked it up, legislation is a ban from 1 July, but Woolworths went 10 days early with June 20 just to clear the backlog.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 00:53:32
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242331
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

AwesomeO said:


party_pants said:

For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

Yes, unlike the OP I don’t think it is any conspiracy to sell bags. Just a lot of people who like me, ordinarily go in, do shopping and expecting bags getting caught short and saying yeah, I’ll buy some bags.

Why they being the supermarkets decided to do so is down to pressure from environmentalists, I don’t think it was down to any government legislation.

More like pseudo-environmentalists. Scientific tests on alternatives bags tend to be less environmentally suitable.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 00:53:57
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1242332
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


AwesomeO said:

party_pants said:

For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

Yes, unlike the OP I don’t think it is any conspiracy to sell bags. Just a lot of people who like me, ordinarily go in, do shopping and expecting bags getting caught short and saying yeah, I’ll buy some bags.

Why they being the supermarkets decided to do so is down to pressure from environmentalists, I don’t think it was down to any government legislation.

Pretty sure it is law here. Legislation is down to pressure from environment groups.

Fair enough, It’s definately down to pressure groups, I just didn’t know that it had reached state or federal legislating level.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 00:54:48
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1242333
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


Ignore me. I was wrong.

I looked it up, legislation is a ban from 1 July, but Woolworths went 10 days early with June 20 just to clear the backlog.

Okely dokely.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 00:57:44
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1242334
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

Doesn’t happen when you walk to the shops like me.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 00:58:09
From: kii
ID: 1242335
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

I’ve been using my own bags since I was in Australia. I would put them at the front door so I literally had to trip over them if I wanted to leave the house.

Now they are kept in the car. I get out, open the back up, take bags out.

All you have to do is train yourself. Not that hard.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 00:58:13
From: party_pants
ID: 1242336
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


AwesomeO said:

party_pants said:

For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

Yes, unlike the OP I don’t think it is any conspiracy to sell bags. Just a lot of people who like me, ordinarily go in, do shopping and expecting bags getting caught short and saying yeah, I’ll buy some bags.

Why they being the supermarkets decided to do so is down to pressure from environmentalists, I don’t think it was down to any government legislation.

More like pseudo-environmentalists. Scientific tests on alternatives bags tend to be less environmentally suitable.

In what way?

I thought the intention was to prevent littering so these lightweight bags don’t end up in forests and waterways. I have no great problem with green bags ending up in landfill after 25 uses.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 00:58:46
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1242337
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


More like pseudo-environmentalists. Scientific tests on alternatives bags tend to be less environmentally suitable.

Insulated zip-up bags of the kind I use can be used hundreds of times.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 00:59:34
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1242338
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Bubblecar said:


party_pants said:

For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

Doesn’t happen when you walk to the shops like me.

Well it can if you walk to the shops expecting it to be bagged for you in “free” plastic bags then finding out they don’t anymore.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:01:13
From: party_pants
ID: 1242339
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

kii said:


party_pants said:

For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

I’ve been using my own bags since I was in Australia. I would put them at the front door so I literally had to trip over them if I wanted to leave the house.

Now they are kept in the car. I get out, open the back up, take bags out.

All you have to do is train yourself. Not that hard.

Ironically I stopped using them so I could stock up on plastic bags prior to the ban, for use as bin liners and the wrap other rubbish etc. I used to bring my own bags prior to that but always found I need a few plastic bags around the home.

I’m just getting back into practice again now. Hence I keep some in the car at all times now.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:03:02
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1242340
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

AwesomeO said:


Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

Doesn’t happen when you walk to the shops like me.

Well it can if you walk to the shops expecting it to be bagged for you in “free” plastic bags then finding out they don’t anymore.

They haven’t done it in Tasmania for many years.

And even when they still did, I used heavy duty green bags because they’re much stronger.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:03:37
From: kii
ID: 1242341
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

AwesomeO said:


Bubblecar said:

party_pants said:

For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

Doesn’t happen when you walk to the shops like me.

Well it can if you walk to the shops expecting it to be bagged for you in “free” plastic bags then finding out they don’t anymore.

Well, don’t walk to the shops expecting it to be bagged for you. I haven’t for at least 18 years.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:04:20
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1242342
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Bubblecar said:


PermeateFree said:

More like pseudo-environmentalists. Scientific tests on alternatives bags tend to be less environmentally suitable.

Insulated zip-up bags of the kind I use can be used hundreds of times.

This style:

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:05:14
From: party_pants
ID: 1242343
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Bubblecar said:


AwesomeO said:

Bubblecar said:

Doesn’t happen when you walk to the shops like me.

Well it can if you walk to the shops expecting it to be bagged for you in “free” plastic bags then finding out they don’t anymore.

They haven’t done it in Tasmania for many years.

And even when they still did, I used heavy duty green bags because they’re much stronger.

When I lived in walking distance to the shops I found that green bags were the way to go. I used to do 4 of them.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:07:08
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1242345
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Bubblecar said:


AwesomeO said:

Bubblecar said:

Doesn’t happen when you walk to the shops like me.

Well it can if you walk to the shops expecting it to be bagged for you in “free” plastic bags then finding out they don’t anymore.

They haven’t done it in Tasmania for many years.

And even when they still did, I used heavy duty green bags because they’re much stronger.

There ya go, I didn’t know it was already happening in Tasmania. Here on the mainland until recently you could go to any of the big retailers without any bags and leave with stuff bagged. It’s not a indictment on people that in the first few weeks some people will be caught unawares.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:16:50
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242349
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


PermeateFree said:

AwesomeO said:

Yes, unlike the OP I don’t think it is any conspiracy to sell bags. Just a lot of people who like me, ordinarily go in, do shopping and expecting bags getting caught short and saying yeah, I’ll buy some bags.

Why they being the supermarkets decided to do so is down to pressure from environmentalists, I don’t think it was down to any government legislation.

More like pseudo-environmentalists. Scientific tests on alternatives bags tend to be less environmentally suitable.

In what way?

I thought the intention was to prevent littering so these lightweight bags don’t end up in forests and waterways. I have no great problem with green bags ending up in landfill after 25 uses.

Well if you read the article of the link I posted in my OP it will tell you.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:19:50
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242351
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Bubblecar said:


Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

More like pseudo-environmentalists. Scientific tests on alternatives bags tend to be less environmentally suitable.

Insulated zip-up bags of the kind I use can be used hundreds of times.

This style:


More about what it is made of, if you read the article in the OP it will tell how good it really is.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:23:37
From: party_pants
ID: 1242354
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

More like pseudo-environmentalists. Scientific tests on alternatives bags tend to be less environmentally suitable.

In what way?

I thought the intention was to prevent littering so these lightweight bags don’t end up in forests and waterways. I have no great problem with green bags ending up in landfill after 25 uses.

Well if you read the article of the link I posted in my OP it will tell you.

It’s not about energy consumption, it is about cutting down on litter.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:25:18
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242356
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

In what way?

I thought the intention was to prevent littering so these lightweight bags don’t end up in forests and waterways. I have no great problem with green bags ending up in landfill after 25 uses.

Well if you read the article of the link I posted in my OP it will tell you.

It’s not about energy consumption, it is about cutting down on litter.

Read it all. Numerous factors are involved and the environment is more than litter on its own.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:31:59
From: party_pants
ID: 1242359
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

Well if you read the article of the link I posted in my OP it will tell you.

It’s not about energy consumption, it is about cutting down on litter.

Read it all. Numerous factors are involved and the environment is more than litter on its own.

I have read it. The article mentions the reason why plastic bags are getting banned is to reduce litter. About 1% of them end up as litter. We use nearly 4 billion of the damn things per year, so that is 40 million that end up as litter. This is the reason why they are being banned.

Considerations about energy use and water consumption is for advanced players only and is addition to the legislation.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:39:56
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242360
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

It’s not about energy consumption, it is about cutting down on litter.

Read it all. Numerous factors are involved and the environment is more than litter on its own.

I have read it. The article mentions the reason why plastic bags are getting banned is to reduce litter. About 1% of them end up as litter. We use nearly 4 billion of the damn things per year, so that is 40 million that end up as litter. This is the reason why they are being banned.

Considerations about energy use and water consumption is for advanced players only and is addition to the legislation.

The number of usages of the heavier grade plastic is important as it will take not only longer to break down, plus produce a considerable amount of waste in comparison to the light weight plastic bags.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:48:10
From: party_pants
ID: 1242362
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

Read it all. Numerous factors are involved and the environment is more than litter on its own.

I have read it. The article mentions the reason why plastic bags are getting banned is to reduce litter. About 1% of them end up as litter. We use nearly 4 billion of the damn things per year, so that is 40 million that end up as litter. This is the reason why they are being banned.

Considerations about energy use and water consumption is for advanced players only and is addition to the legislation.

The number of usages of the heavier grade plastic is important as it will take not only longer to break down, plus produce a considerable amount of waste in comparison to the light weight plastic bags.

Yeah I get all that. I just don’t think that it is quite as important as you make it out to be. To me it doesn’t really matter how long the alternative bags take to break down if they end up in controlled landfill rather than as litter, they are being sequestered.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:51:09
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242363
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

I have read it. The article mentions the reason why plastic bags are getting banned is to reduce litter. About 1% of them end up as litter. We use nearly 4 billion of the damn things per year, so that is 40 million that end up as litter. This is the reason why they are being banned.

Considerations about energy use and water consumption is for advanced players only and is addition to the legislation.

The number of usages of the heavier grade plastic is important as it will take not only longer to break down, plus produce a considerable amount of waste in comparison to the light weight plastic bags.

Yeah I get all that. I just don’t think that it is quite as important as you make it out to be. To me it doesn’t really matter how long the alternative bags take to break down if they end up in controlled landfill rather than as litter, they are being sequestered.

What makes you think that the same percentage or even greater wont end up in the environment?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 01:55:50
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242364
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

The number of usages of the heavier grade plastic is important as it will take not only longer to break down, plus produce a considerable amount of waste in comparison to the light weight plastic bags.

Yeah I get all that. I just don’t think that it is quite as important as you make it out to be. To me it doesn’t really matter how long the alternative bags take to break down if they end up in controlled landfill rather than as litter, they are being sequestered.

What makes you think that the same percentage or even greater wont end up in the environment?

I might add that the results of the test are not my opinion, but the results of the research.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 02:01:42
From: party_pants
ID: 1242366
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

The number of usages of the heavier grade plastic is important as it will take not only longer to break down, plus produce a considerable amount of waste in comparison to the light weight plastic bags.

Yeah I get all that. I just don’t think that it is quite as important as you make it out to be. To me it doesn’t really matter how long the alternative bags take to break down if they end up in controlled landfill rather than as litter, they are being sequestered.

What makes you think that the same percentage or even greater wont end up in the environment?

Because people will learn to reuse bags, and will reuse them till they wear out. After which they will go in the wheelie bin and off to landfill. Being heavy duty they will be less likely to fall apart during use and be discarded, or escape in strong winds or similar ways on which they end up as litter. If they survive the journey from supermarket to home at a higher rate than lightweight plastic bags they will be less likely to end up as litter.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 02:07:30
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242368
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

Yeah I get all that. I just don’t think that it is quite as important as you make it out to be. To me it doesn’t really matter how long the alternative bags take to break down if they end up in controlled landfill rather than as litter, they are being sequestered.

What makes you think that the same percentage or even greater wont end up in the environment?

Because people will learn to reuse bags, and will reuse them till they wear out. After which they will go in the wheelie bin and off to landfill. Being heavy duty they will be less likely to fall apart during use and be discarded, or escape in strong winds or similar ways on which they end up as litter. If they survive the journey from supermarket to home at a higher rate than lightweight plastic bags they will be less likely to end up as litter.

No, what will happen is people will spill stuff in them and will not be bothered to clean them out, it will not be everyone, but it will be a number. A dollar is not much money to many people these days.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 02:19:44
From: party_pants
ID: 1242369
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

What makes you think that the same percentage or even greater wont end up in the environment?

Because people will learn to reuse bags, and will reuse them till they wear out. After which they will go in the wheelie bin and off to landfill. Being heavy duty they will be less likely to fall apart during use and be discarded, or escape in strong winds or similar ways on which they end up as litter. If they survive the journey from supermarket to home at a higher rate than lightweight plastic bags they will be less likely to end up as litter.

No, what will happen is people will spill stuff in them and will not be bothered to clean them out, it will not be everyone, but it will be a number. A dollar is not much money to many people these days.

But they will still carry them home, and then dispose of them.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 02:21:13
From: Tau.Neutrino
ID: 1242370
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

eBay > cloth bags > shopping

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 02:30:21
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242371
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

Because people will learn to reuse bags, and will reuse them till they wear out. After which they will go in the wheelie bin and off to landfill. Being heavy duty they will be less likely to fall apart during use and be discarded, or escape in strong winds or similar ways on which they end up as litter. If they survive the journey from supermarket to home at a higher rate than lightweight plastic bags they will be less likely to end up as litter.

No, what will happen is people will spill stuff in them and will not be bothered to clean them out, it will not be everyone, but it will be a number. A dollar is not much money to many people these days.

But they will still carry them home, and then dispose of them.

You might and most people would, but if you think they all would, then you haven’t seen some of the people I have, which I might add are also likely to be the ones that litter with other stuff too, including the light polybags.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 06:58:22
From: Divine Angel
ID: 1242377
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

I took my own cloth bag to the supey the other day. I put a bottle of milk in… which fell straight through the bag. I had to buy another bag.

Yesterday when I was at Woolies they gave me a tag to hang from my rear view mirror reminding me to bring my green bags.

Krispy has been using biodegradable bags forever. Last week I asked a friend who still works there if they had gotten rid of those bags, as they are banned as well under the QLD ban. She said no one has said anything about th bags… so I guess they’re staying. They’re a thicker plastic than supermarket bags and apparently biodegradable within 2-5 years (I once researched the company who supplied them). Krispy also sell blue enviro bags for $1.50, of which 50c is donated to Make A Wish.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 07:04:23
From: Stumpy_seahorse
ID: 1242380
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Divine Angel said:


I took my own cloth bag to the supey the other day. I put a bottle of milk in… which fell straight through the bag. I had to buy another bag.

Yesterday when I was at Woolies they gave me a tag to hang from my rear view mirror reminding me to bring my green bags.

Krispy has been using biodegradable bags forever. Last week I asked a friend who still works there if they had gotten rid of those bags, as they are banned as well under the QLD ban. She said no one has said anything about th bags… so I guess they’re staying. They’re a thicker plastic than supermarket bags and apparently biodegradable within 2-5 years (I once researched the company who supplied them). Krispy also sell blue enviro bags for $1.50, of which 50c is donated to Make A Wish.

welcome to the future, congratulations on catching up t SA…

We’ve been dealing with the crappy replacements for SUP bags for years

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 07:11:28
From: buffy
ID: 1242381
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

I remember the time (I’m old, I can say that!) when taking your own bags to the supermarket got black looks from the cashiers. We used to do it to annoy them. Then we would use our bags sometimes and their bags sometimes because of the reuse thing for rubbish. Use theirs until our little store bag was full, then go back to ours. I’m afraid we have timed this badly. Store of disposable plastic bags is only half full.

I would like the old heavy paper bags back. I liked them.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 07:15:43
From: Stumpy_seahorse
ID: 1242382
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

IGA are good, they have an area full of empty boxes that I usually use.
It’s much easier with a ute than a sedan though, in Jamestown, sometimes I didn’t even need to put it in the tray, just sat the box on top..

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 07:18:42
From: Divine Angel
ID: 1242384
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Mum was saying that in Ye olden days, you used to take a container back to the place of purchase and get it refilled. They should bring back that system if they were serious about reducing waste.

Yesterday Mr Mutant’s company gave all their employees a reusable coffee cup.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 07:24:32
From: Stumpy_seahorse
ID: 1242386
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Divine Angel said:


Mum was saying that in Ye olden days, you used to take a container back to the place of purchase and get it refilled. They should bring back that system if they were serious about reducing waste.

Yesterday Mr Mutant’s company gave all their employees a reusable coffee cup.

yeah, I gave my sister one of them for xn=mas, her new workplace requires they use them at work now

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 09:06:46
From: Michael V
ID: 1242392
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

https://boomerangbags.org/

Mrs V contributes to this community organisation. She makes lots of bags each week from donated (off-cuts, roll-ends,etc, new) cloth and they give them away. They recently had a 40 foot container of cloth offered to them.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 09:39:28
From: kii
ID: 1242400
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Michael V said:


https://boomerangbags.org/

Mrs V contributes to this community organisation. She makes lots of bags each week from donated (off-cuts, roll-ends,etc, new) cloth and they give them away. They recently had a 40 foot container of cloth offered to them.

Nice. If I can find my motivation I might look into this.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 09:42:17
From: Arts
ID: 1242403
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

I think that ‘forgetting’ thing will change though. I have mine in the car permanently and I have forgotten to bring them into the shop on more than one occasion.. “No worries, I’ll just use the plastic ones” I think. But if the plastic ones are not an alternative, the mindset will change to ‘I have to’.. I will become routine. It will take time though.

People will think of all sorts fo excuses as to how ‘inconvenient’ this is, but a giant leap begins with a small step, so I endorse this move. I hope it will follow with other types of packaging

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 10:13:35
From: Cymek
ID: 1242406
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

What about the popular secondary use of the bags as bin liners, people are now going to have to buy a lot more of them instead of reusing the ones you get groceries packed in and the problem may continue.

When they mean litter are they bags that just blow around the environment as people as careless or are they directly related to bin use.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 10:17:36
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1242407
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

i use the polypropylene ones. will get far more than 11 uses from them, in fact had that already.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 10:17:46
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1242408
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


>>For any states still able to get their hands on single-use shopping bags, the party comes to an end today in Woolworths, and on July 1 in Coles and IGA stores nationwide.

Also on July 1, Queensland and Western Australia will be joining the Northern Territory, the ACT, Tasmania and South Australia in a total statewide ban on the bags.

So with the writing on the wall, we can either pay for heavy-duty plastic bags, or start bringing our own.<<

http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-06-20/plastic-bag-ban-options/9874474

I went to Wollies today and they were selling hundreds of green re-usable bags, clearly Wollies were making good profits, but is it just a scam to extract more money from the consumer?

I can see the use of the ban. In a word – wind. It would be predominantly wind-blown bags that end up in the environment. Heavier bags would be less blown about (and less likely to be blown off rubbish dumps) by the wind.

What’s the exact wording of the legislation?

What is its definition of a “single use shopping bag”?
Does it apply to corner shops, Op shops, clothing stores, $2 shops etc.?
Is the ban inclusive of the reuse of single-use plastic bags that have been donated to the store? We donate our excess single-use shopping bags to the Op shop and corner store.

> You’ll need to reuse a heavy-duty bag at least four times to recoup the extra energy needed to make it, according to a British life-cycle assessment of the comparative energy costs of different bag materials.

Four times isn’t much, but given that a majority of single use bags are used twice (eg. as bin liners) that then becomes eight times. That’s pushing the lifetime of the 15 cent bags isn’t it? For a reusable green bag, would that mean that it has to be used (100/15*8=) 50 times? Not according to the article, just 11 times two equals 22 times. But again starting to push the lifetime of the bag.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 10:24:54
From: Cymek
ID: 1242409
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

What we need is bags that break down immediately upon being exposed to directed UV light.
We could also have proper clean up Australia days on a regular basis, litter in local suburbs (mine at least) is quite bad and shows the I don’t care attitude. It could even have a recycle reward, every kilogram of waste gets you some money.
Plus as I mentioned before why doesn’t community service given to criminals include rubbish cleaning, that part of the sentence is the punishment part (it doesn’t have to be all touchy feel good)

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 10:27:15
From: Arts
ID: 1242412
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

I think the problem is not only the bag as a whole, which is an issue if they get into waterways (won’t someone thing of the turtles!) but the particles they break down into that don’t ‘just disappear’ but also get into waterways and become fish food.. that humans then consume.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 10:39:17
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1242415
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Is this the Victorian legislation? http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/PubPDocs_Arch.nsf/5da7442d8f61e92bca256de50013d008/ca257cca00177a46ca257fd9007c863e/$FILE/581PM12bi1.DOCX

Environment Protection Amendment (Banning Plastic Bags, Packaging and Microbeads) Bill, 2016

A Bill for an Act to amend the Environment Protection Act 1970 to restrict the supply and sale of plastic bags and plastic and polystyrene packaging and to prohibit the supply and sale of plastic microbeads and for other purposes.

(1) This Act (except sections 5, 6 and 7) comes into operation on 1 March 2017.
(2) Sections 5, 6 and 7 come into operation on 1 September 2017.

(Um, so that includes the plastic bags in cornflakes packets and hundreds of other products, doesn’t it? Includes bubble wrap in padded postbags? Definitely includes foam packing of refrigerators and packaging of meat).

(That definitely includes single use bags donated to Op shops).

(Then how the fuck …?)

Or do I have the wrong legislation?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 11:13:29
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1242420
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

mollwollfumble said:


PermeateFree said:

>>For any states still able to get their hands on single-use shopping bags, the party comes to an end today in Woolworths, and on July 1 in Coles and IGA stores nationwide.

Also on July 1, Queensland and Western Australia will be joining the Northern Territory, the ACT, Tasmania and South Australia in a total statewide ban on the bags.

So with the writing on the wall, we can either pay for heavy-duty plastic bags, or start bringing our own.<<

http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-06-20/plastic-bag-ban-options/9874474

I went to Wollies today and they were selling hundreds of green re-usable bags, clearly Wollies were making good profits, but is it just a scam to extract more money from the consumer?

I can see the use of the ban. In a word – wind. It would be predominantly wind-blown bags that end up in the environment. Heavier bags would be less blown about (and less likely to be blown off rubbish dumps) by the wind.

What’s the exact wording of the legislation?

What is its definition of a “single use shopping bag”?
Does it apply to corner shops, Op shops, clothing stores, $2 shops etc.?
Is the ban inclusive of the reuse of single-use plastic bags that have been donated to the store? We donate our excess single-use shopping bags to the Op shop and corner store.

> You’ll need to reuse a heavy-duty bag at least four times to recoup the extra energy needed to make it, according to a British life-cycle assessment of the comparative energy costs of different bag materials.

Four times isn’t much, but given that a majority of single use bags are used twice (eg. as bin liners) that then becomes eight times. That’s pushing the lifetime of the 15 cent bags isn’t it? For a reusable green bag, would that mean that it has to be used (100/15*8=) 50 times? Not according to the article, just 11 times two equals 22 times. But again starting to push the lifetime of the bag.

Agreed.

In so far as this reduces waste, it’s a good thing, but there will still be a huge amount of waste plastic in the system, so if the main problem is bags getting into waterways, waste management procedures need to be changed to ensure that they don’t get into waterways.

How come the meeja don’t talk about that?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 11:28:39
From: Divine Angel
ID: 1242423
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

mollwollfumble said:


PermeateFree said:

>>For any states still able to get their hands on single-use shopping bags, the party comes to an end today in Woolworths, and on July 1 in Coles and IGA stores nationwide.

Also on July 1, Queensland and Western Australia will be joining the Northern Territory, the ACT, Tasmania and South Australia in a total statewide ban on the bags.

So with the writing on the wall, we can either pay for heavy-duty plastic bags, or start bringing our own.<<

http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-06-20/plastic-bag-ban-options/9874474

I went to Wollies today and they were selling hundreds of green re-usable bags, clearly Wollies were making good profits, but is it just a scam to extract more money from the consumer?

I can see the use of the ban. In a word – wind. It would be predominantly wind-blown bags that end up in the environment. Heavier bags would be less blown about (and less likely to be blown off rubbish dumps) by the wind.

What’s the exact wording of the legislation?

What is its definition of a “single use shopping bag”?
Does it apply to corner shops, Op shops, clothing stores, $2 shops etc.?
Is the ban inclusive of the reuse of single-use plastic bags that have been donated to the store? We donate our excess single-use shopping bags to the Op shop and corner store.

> You’ll need to reuse a heavy-duty bag at least four times to recoup the extra energy needed to make it, according to a British life-cycle assessment of the comparative energy costs of different bag materials.

Four times isn’t much, but given that a majority of single use bags are used twice (eg. as bin liners) that then becomes eight times. That’s pushing the lifetime of the 15 cent bags isn’t it? For a reusable green bag, would that mean that it has to be used (100/15*8=) 50 times? Not according to the article, just 11 times two equals 22 times. But again starting to push the lifetime of the bag.

“Single use” bag is anything 35 microns or thinner, plus so-called biodegradable bags no matter the thickness. The ban applies to all stores, at least in Qld. The ban does not include nappy bags (ie, bags to put soiled diapers in), dog poo bags, fruit and veg bags, bin liners or garbage bags (I don’t know the difference between a bin liner and a garbage bag).

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 11:28:43
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1242424
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

The Rev Dodgson said:


mollwollfumble said:

PermeateFree said:

>>For any states still able to get their hands on single-use shopping bags, the party comes to an end today in Woolworths, and on July 1 in Coles and IGA stores nationwide.

Also on July 1, Queensland and Western Australia will be joining the Northern Territory, the ACT, Tasmania and South Australia in a total statewide ban on the bags.

So with the writing on the wall, we can either pay for heavy-duty plastic bags, or start bringing our own.<<

http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-06-20/plastic-bag-ban-options/9874474

I went to Wollies today and they were selling hundreds of green re-usable bags, clearly Wollies were making good profits, but is it just a scam to extract more money from the consumer?

I can see the use of the ban. In a word – wind. It would be predominantly wind-blown bags that end up in the environment. Heavier bags would be less blown about (and less likely to be blown off rubbish dumps) by the wind.

What’s the exact wording of the legislation?

What is its definition of a “single use shopping bag”?
Does it apply to corner shops, Op shops, clothing stores, $2 shops etc.?
Is the ban inclusive of the reuse of single-use plastic bags that have been donated to the store? We donate our excess single-use shopping bags to the Op shop and corner store.

> You’ll need to reuse a heavy-duty bag at least four times to recoup the extra energy needed to make it, according to a British life-cycle assessment of the comparative energy costs of different bag materials.

Four times isn’t much, but given that a majority of single use bags are used twice (eg. as bin liners) that then becomes eight times. That’s pushing the lifetime of the 15 cent bags isn’t it? For a reusable green bag, would that mean that it has to be used (100/15*8=) 50 times? Not according to the article, just 11 times two equals 22 times. But again starting to push the lifetime of the bag.

Agreed.

In so far as this reduces waste, it’s a good thing, but there will still be a huge amount of waste plastic in the system, so if the main problem is bags getting into waterways, waste management procedures need to be changed to ensure that they don’t get into waterways.

How come the meeja don’t talk about that?

If I read this legislation correctly, it includes a ban of all waterproof packaging other than bottles, tins and tubs.

That amounts to a statewide ban on – among hundreds of other things:

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 11:29:39
From: Cymek
ID: 1242425
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

The Rev Dodgson said:


mollwollfumble said:

PermeateFree said:

>>For any states still able to get their hands on single-use shopping bags, the party comes to an end today in Woolworths, and on July 1 in Coles and IGA stores nationwide.

Also on July 1, Queensland and Western Australia will be joining the Northern Territory, the ACT, Tasmania and South Australia in a total statewide ban on the bags.

So with the writing on the wall, we can either pay for heavy-duty plastic bags, or start bringing our own.<<

http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2018-06-20/plastic-bag-ban-options/9874474

I went to Wollies today and they were selling hundreds of green re-usable bags, clearly Wollies were making good profits, but is it just a scam to extract more money from the consumer?

I can see the use of the ban. In a word – wind. It would be predominantly wind-blown bags that end up in the environment. Heavier bags would be less blown about (and less likely to be blown off rubbish dumps) by the wind.

What’s the exact wording of the legislation?

What is its definition of a “single use shopping bag”?
Does it apply to corner shops, Op shops, clothing stores, $2 shops etc.?
Is the ban inclusive of the reuse of single-use plastic bags that have been donated to the store? We donate our excess single-use shopping bags to the Op shop and corner store.

> You’ll need to reuse a heavy-duty bag at least four times to recoup the extra energy needed to make it, according to a British life-cycle assessment of the comparative energy costs of different bag materials.

Four times isn’t much, but given that a majority of single use bags are used twice (eg. as bin liners) that then becomes eight times. That’s pushing the lifetime of the 15 cent bags isn’t it? For a reusable green bag, would that mean that it has to be used (100/15*8=) 50 times? Not according to the article, just 11 times two equals 22 times. But again starting to push the lifetime of the bag.

Agreed.

In so far as this reduces waste, it’s a good thing, but there will still be a huge amount of waste plastic in the system, so if the main problem is bags getting into waterways, waste management procedures need to be changed to ensure that they don’t get into waterways.

How come the meeja don’t talk about that?

Why aren’t job created to clean up waterways (assuming they aren’t already)
Would people do rubbish cleaning at a minimum wage pay rate or rather be unemployed, not something you could generalise I suppose, but lots of work cleaning up the environment without the need for specialised skills

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 11:31:06
From: Divine Angel
ID: 1242426
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

mollwollfumble said:

If I read this legislation correctly, it includes a ban of all waterproof packaging other than bottles, tins and tubs.

That amounts to a statewide ban on – among hundreds of other things:

  • breakfast cereal
  • sliced bread
  • HTT milk
  • cooled supermarket meat (including devon)
  • lollies
  • crisps
  • toilet paper
  • tissues
  • garbage bags
  • nuts
  • soup

Those things are exempt from the ban.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 11:34:25
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1242428
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Divine Angel said:


mollwollfumble said:

If I read this legislation correctly, it includes a ban of all waterproof packaging other than bottles, tins and tubs.

That amounts to a statewide ban on – among hundreds of other things:

  • breakfast cereal
  • sliced bread
  • HTT milk
  • cooled supermarket meat (including devon)
  • lollies
  • crisps
  • toilet paper
  • tissues
  • garbage bags
  • nuts
  • soup

Those things are exempt from the ban.

Thanks, that’s a relief. Do you have a reference for that 35 microns, and exempt categories?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 11:36:56
From: Divine Angel
ID: 1242429
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Have fun, moll

http://qldbagban.com.au/about-the-ban/

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 11:37:15
From: transition
ID: 1242430
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

“…health-related purposes…”

relax, eating because you’re hungry is health-related

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 11:41:38
From: Divine Angel
ID: 1242432
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

I wonder, if such a ban were implemented in Canada, would they use bottles for their milk instead of plastic bags?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 11:48:03
From: transition
ID: 1242433
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

transition said:


“…health-related purposes…”

relax, eating because you’re hungry is health-related

or, I should say securing food is health-related

formal writing can be a funny business, i’m sure the legislator wigs thought about it anyway.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 12:01:43
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1242441
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Divine Angel said:


Have fun, moll

http://qldbagban.com.au/about-the-ban/

I like your legislation, DA.

> Less than 35 microns

Do bags from clothing stores fit that description?

> degradable bags

So they’re banning biodegradable bags. :-( Oh well, they were never very popular anyway.

> Only includes bags with handles.

That’s surprising, but OK. Do bags from $2 shops have handles? I think not, though they’re certainly less than 35 microns.

> bags that are integral to a product’s packaging.

Whew.

> A retailer must not give a banned plastic shopping bag to a person to use to carry goods the retailer sells from the retailer’s premises.

That definitely includes Op shops and other stores to whom such bags are donated. Not a huge problem. People can donate thicker bags.

> waste management service providers to ensure empty beverage containers collected through general waste services are recycled by providing for recovery amounts to be paid for containers sent for recycling.

That’s startling. I like it. Expensive but worth the cost.

> bans beverages sold in unregistered containers.

That means no polystyrene cups? If so, then very good. Does it mean no plastic cups? Could it be seen as an attempt to restrict import of beverages made overseas?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 12:03:48
From: Cymek
ID: 1242442
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

mollwollfumble said:


Divine Angel said:

Have fun, moll

http://qldbagban.com.au/about-the-ban/

I like your legislation, DA.

> Less than 35 microns

Do bags from clothing stores fit that description?

> degradable bags

So they’re banning biodegradable bags. :-( Oh well, they were never very popular anyway.

> Only includes bags with handles.

That’s surprising, but OK. Do bags from $2 shops have handles? I think not, though they’re certainly less than 35 microns.

> bags that are integral to a product’s packaging.

Whew.

> A retailer must not give a banned plastic shopping bag to a person to use to carry goods the retailer sells from the retailer’s premises.

That definitely includes Op shops and other stores to whom such bags are donated. Not a huge problem. People can donate thicker bags.

> waste management service providers to ensure empty beverage containers collected through general waste services are recycled by providing for recovery amounts to be paid for containers sent for recycling.

That’s startling. I like it. Expensive but worth the cost.

> bans beverages sold in unregistered containers.

That means no polystyrene cups? If so, then very good. Does it mean no plastic cups? Could it be seen as an attempt to restrict import of beverages made overseas?

Disposable coffee cups should be next

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 12:10:28
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1242446
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Cymek said:

Disposable coffee cups should be next

I think they’re already included in the second part of this legislation.

See part 3B of the legislation that DA linked to.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 12:15:17
From: Cymek
ID: 1242451
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

mollwollfumble said:


Cymek said:

Disposable coffee cups should be next

I think they’re already included in the second part of this legislation.

See part 3B of the legislation that DA linked to.

I wonder how plastic waste can be repurposed with some effort and ingenuity, could it be melted down, combined together and used in moulds for furniture, floor surfaces, etc for example

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 12:23:24
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1242452
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Cymek said:


mollwollfumble said:

Cymek said:

Disposable coffee cups should be next

I think they’re already included in the second part of this legislation.

See part 3B of the legislation that DA linked to.

I wonder how plastic waste can be repurposed with some effort and ingenuity, could it be melted down, combined together and used in moulds for furniture, floor surfaces, etc for example

There was a “global village” episode that talked about that being done in Africa.

An enterprising family bought plastic shopping bags that had been collected from the local dump. They melted them down and combined them with sand in what was essentially a concrete mixer to make plastic+sand tiles which they sold as roofing and floor tiles.

There was one small problem with the operation – not the economics, that was good. The problem was the chlorine in the PVC caused the whole operation to stink. You couldn’t get away with it in Australia without some sort of exhaust gas scrubber.

Other plastics are recycled into furniture and floor surfaces in Australia.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 12:25:52
From: Cymek
ID: 1242454
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

mollwollfumble said:


Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

I think they’re already included in the second part of this legislation.

See part 3B of the legislation that DA linked to.

I wonder how plastic waste can be repurposed with some effort and ingenuity, could it be melted down, combined together and used in moulds for furniture, floor surfaces, etc for example

There was a “global village” episode that talked about that being done in Africa.

An enterprising family bought plastic shopping bags that had been collected from the local dump. They melted them down and combined them with sand in what was essentially a concrete mixer to make plastic+sand tiles which they sold as roofing and floor tiles.

There was one small problem with the operation – not the economics, that was good. The problem was the chlorine in the PVC caused the whole operation to stink. You couldn’t get away with it in Australia without some sort of exhaust gas scrubber.

Other plastics are recycled into furniture and floor surfaces in Australia.

That’s good then

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 12:54:13
From: Michael V
ID: 1242475
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Cymek said:


mollwollfumble said:

Cymek said:

Disposable coffee cups should be next

I think they’re already included in the second part of this legislation.

See part 3B of the legislation that DA linked to.

I wonder how plastic waste can be repurposed with some effort and ingenuity, could it be melted down, combined together and used in moulds for furniture, floor surfaces, etc for example

A teenager from St Jude’s school in Tanzania won an international award recently for coming up with a method of converting discarded plastics (bags, bottles etc) into house-bricks.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 12:59:24
From: buffy
ID: 1242479
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

I just went to Woolies. They had a container of milk start to split in the selfserve checkouts and the staff immediately went to grab a plastic bag…which wasn’t there. The guys on the checkouts can’t reach the 15c bags.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 13:00:58
From: Divine Angel
ID: 1242481
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

At Krispy people asked me for our plastic bags to vomit in for carsick passengers. Tee hee

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 13:01:33
From: Michael V
ID: 1242482
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

buffy said:

I just went to Woolies. They had a container of milk start to split in the selfserve checkouts and the staff immediately went to grab a plastic bag…which wasn’t there. The guys on the checkouts can’t reach the 15c bags.

Unintended consequences, eh.

:)

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 14:44:59
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242526
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


party_pants said:

For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

I think that ‘forgetting’ thing will change though. I have mine in the car permanently and I have forgotten to bring them into the shop on more than one occasion.. “No worries, I’ll just use the plastic ones” I think. But if the plastic ones are not an alternative, the mindset will change to ‘I have to’.. I will become routine. It will take time though.

People will think of all sorts fo excuses as to how ‘inconvenient’ this is, but a giant leap begins with a small step, so I endorse this move. I hope it will follow with other types of packaging

Shopping in the country is a bit different to shopping in the city. It is easy for city dwellers to pop down to the supermarket to get what they need. However in the country people usually live a long way from the shops and consequently go less often and when they do, purchase much more. I commonly see farm women with 2 large sized trolleys full of groceries, which would require many shopping bags, not just one or two. It will get to the situation that you will need another trolley just for the bags.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 14:47:29
From: Cymek
ID: 1242530
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


Arts said:

party_pants said:

For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

I think that ‘forgetting’ thing will change though. I have mine in the car permanently and I have forgotten to bring them into the shop on more than one occasion.. “No worries, I’ll just use the plastic ones” I think. But if the plastic ones are not an alternative, the mindset will change to ‘I have to’.. I will become routine. It will take time though.

People will think of all sorts fo excuses as to how ‘inconvenient’ this is, but a giant leap begins with a small step, so I endorse this move. I hope it will follow with other types of packaging

Shopping in the country is a bit different to shopping in the city. It is easy for city dwellers to pop down to the supermarket to get what they need. However in the country people usually live a long way from the shops and consequently go less often and when they do, purchase much more. I commonly see farm women with 2 large sized trolleys full of groceries, which would require many shopping bags, not just one or two. It will get to the situation that you will need another trolley just for the bags.

You could I suppose fit out your boot with some containers and put the shopping directly into them from the trolley which most of the items are loose

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 14:55:17
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1242532
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

I don’t get that. Are you saying that you will need a trolley from your car to the supermarket to carry enough bags to carry back two trolleys worth of stuff? If that’s what you think I reckon you might be off your trolley.

Solution. Stuff five or ten bags into bag, take into shops, take two bags, one in each hand, that’s 12 to 22 bags. At a guess.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 14:55:42
From: party_pants
ID: 1242533
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


Arts said:

party_pants said:

For some reason WA started on June 20 rather than a nice convenient date like 1 July.

I too went to Woolworths today and they were also doing a roaring trade in bags for people that forgot to bring any.

I myself forgot to grab them out of the car and only remembered as I was halfway across the car park. Had to turn around and go back to the car to fetch them.

I think that ‘forgetting’ thing will change though. I have mine in the car permanently and I have forgotten to bring them into the shop on more than one occasion.. “No worries, I’ll just use the plastic ones” I think. But if the plastic ones are not an alternative, the mindset will change to ‘I have to’.. I will become routine. It will take time though.

People will think of all sorts fo excuses as to how ‘inconvenient’ this is, but a giant leap begins with a small step, so I endorse this move. I hope it will follow with other types of packaging

Shopping in the country is a bit different to shopping in the city. It is easy for city dwellers to pop down to the supermarket to get what they need. However in the country people usually live a long way from the shops and consequently go less often and when they do, purchase much more. I commonly see farm women with 2 large sized trolleys full of groceries, which would require many shopping bags, not just one or two. It will get to the situation that you will need another trolley just for the bags.

you can fold up the bags and put them inside another bag.

My niece and her husband used to shop like that in Broome when they lived remote. They would fill one trolley, husband would go to checkout and start packing it all in the car, while she grabbed a second trolley and kept on shopping.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 14:57:56
From: Cymek
ID: 1242534
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

AwesomeO said:


I don’t get that. Are you saying that you will need a trolley from your car to the supermarket to carry enough bags to carry back two trolleys worth of stuff? If that’s what you think I reckon you might be off your trolley.

Solution. Stuff five or ten bags into bag, take into shops, take two bags, one in each hand, that’s 12 to 22 bags. At a guess.

The cloth bags with the base in them hold quite a bit of shopping probably twice or more as much as plastic bag, lots of tins and jars can be double stacked, possible fit twenty of so may get heavyish

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 14:58:18
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1242536
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

I would think manoeuvring two trolleys out into the car park a bigger imbuggerance than carrying enough bags to fill two trolleys into the supermarket.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:01:24
From: party_pants
ID: 1242538
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

AwesomeO said:


I would think manoeuvring two trolleys out into the car park a bigger imbuggerance than carrying enough bags to fill two trolleys into the supermarket.

Yeah.

Even first world problems have simple solutions, if you have so many bags to take into the supermarket that you can’t carry them all then grab an empty trolley in the car park and load your empty bags in it. It’s not rocket surgery.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:07:03
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242540
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Cymek said:


PermeateFree said:

Arts said:

I think that ‘forgetting’ thing will change though. I have mine in the car permanently and I have forgotten to bring them into the shop on more than one occasion.. “No worries, I’ll just use the plastic ones” I think. But if the plastic ones are not an alternative, the mindset will change to ‘I have to’.. I will become routine. It will take time though.

People will think of all sorts fo excuses as to how ‘inconvenient’ this is, but a giant leap begins with a small step, so I endorse this move. I hope it will follow with other types of packaging

Shopping in the country is a bit different to shopping in the city. It is easy for city dwellers to pop down to the supermarket to get what they need. However in the country people usually live a long way from the shops and consequently go less often and when they do, purchase much more. I commonly see farm women with 2 large sized trolleys full of groceries, which would require many shopping bags, not just one or two. It will get to the situation that you will need another trolley just for the bags.

You could I suppose fit out your boot with some containers and put the shopping directly into them from the trolley which most of the items are loose

That’s what I did, no bags at all.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:10:48
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242542
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

AwesomeO said:


I don’t get that. Are you saying that you will need a trolley from your car to the supermarket to carry enough bags to carry back two trolleys worth of stuff? If that’s what you think I reckon you might be off your trolley.

Solution. Stuff five or ten bags into bag, take into shops, take two bags, one in each hand, that’s 12 to 22 bags. At a guess.

Having a number of empty bags in your trolley and trying to make room for food is not easy. You might be able to stuff 10 thin plastic bags into another, but the thicker bags, especially if they are not new take up considerably more room.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:14:14
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1242543
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


AwesomeO said:

I don’t get that. Are you saying that you will need a trolley from your car to the supermarket to carry enough bags to carry back two trolleys worth of stuff? If that’s what you think I reckon you might be off your trolley.

Solution. Stuff five or ten bags into bag, take into shops, take two bags, one in each hand, that’s 12 to 22 bags. At a guess.

Having a number of empty bags in your trolley and trying to make room for food is not easy. You might be able to stuff 10 thin plastic bags into another, but the thicker bags, especially if they are not new take up considerably more room.

I am sure that the farmers wives will overcome and adapt. I can’t see a problem myself. If they can manage two trolleys out they can manage empty bags in.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:14:29
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242544
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


PermeateFree said:

Arts said:

I think that ‘forgetting’ thing will change though. I have mine in the car permanently and I have forgotten to bring them into the shop on more than one occasion.. “No worries, I’ll just use the plastic ones” I think. But if the plastic ones are not an alternative, the mindset will change to ‘I have to’.. I will become routine. It will take time though.

People will think of all sorts fo excuses as to how ‘inconvenient’ this is, but a giant leap begins with a small step, so I endorse this move. I hope it will follow with other types of packaging

Shopping in the country is a bit different to shopping in the city. It is easy for city dwellers to pop down to the supermarket to get what they need. However in the country people usually live a long way from the shops and consequently go less often and when they do, purchase much more. I commonly see farm women with 2 large sized trolleys full of groceries, which would require many shopping bags, not just one or two. It will get to the situation that you will need another trolley just for the bags.

you can fold up the bags and put them inside another bag.

My niece and her husband used to shop like that in Broome when they lived remote. They would fill one trolley, husband would go to checkout and start packing it all in the car, while she grabbed a second trolley and kept on shopping.

I am not saying it can’t be done, just a bloody nuisance and one where the environmental advantages are highly questionable.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:16:37
From: Divine Angel
ID: 1242546
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

You can also get trolley bags to put your shopping in to take straight from trolley to car and inside. Or if you go to Aldi, Keep a laundry basket in your boot and put groceries in basket, carry to house.

If you get online shopping, Woolies now offers crates or 15c bags to bring your shopping in.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:24:59
From: Arts
ID: 1242549
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

Shopping in the country is a bit different to shopping in the city. It is easy for city dwellers to pop down to the supermarket to get what they need. However in the country people usually live a long way from the shops and consequently go less often and when they do, purchase much more. I commonly see farm women with 2 large sized trolleys full of groceries, which would require many shopping bags, not just one or two. It will get to the situation that you will need another trolley just for the bags.

you can fold up the bags and put them inside another bag.

My niece and her husband used to shop like that in Broome when they lived remote. They would fill one trolley, husband would go to checkout and start packing it all in the car, while she grabbed a second trolley and kept on shopping.

I am not saying it can’t be done, just a bloody nuisance and one where the environmental advantages are highly questionable.

so, it can be done, may just be an attitude change.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:25:32
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242550
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

AwesomeO said:


PermeateFree said:

AwesomeO said:

I don’t get that. Are you saying that you will need a trolley from your car to the supermarket to carry enough bags to carry back two trolleys worth of stuff? If that’s what you think I reckon you might be off your trolley.

Solution. Stuff five or ten bags into bag, take into shops, take two bags, one in each hand, that’s 12 to 22 bags. At a guess.

Having a number of empty bags in your trolley and trying to make room for food is not easy. You might be able to stuff 10 thin plastic bags into another, but the thicker bags, especially if they are not new take up considerably more room.

I am sure that the farmers wives will overcome and adapt. I can’t see a problem myself. If they can manage two trolleys out they can manage empty bags in.

You miss the point, it is having all the empty bags in the trolley when you are shopping.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:26:14
From: Arts
ID: 1242551
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

AwesomeO said:


PermeateFree said:

AwesomeO said:

I don’t get that. Are you saying that you will need a trolley from your car to the supermarket to carry enough bags to carry back two trolleys worth of stuff? If that’s what you think I reckon you might be off your trolley.

Solution. Stuff five or ten bags into bag, take into shops, take two bags, one in each hand, that’s 12 to 22 bags. At a guess.

Having a number of empty bags in your trolley and trying to make room for food is not easy. You might be able to stuff 10 thin plastic bags into another, but the thicker bags, especially if they are not new take up considerably more room.

I am sure that the farmers wives will overcome and adapt. I can’t see a problem myself. If they can manage two trolleys out they can manage empty bags in.

also, don’t you guys have the same trolleys as we do? there’s a little hook at the handle to put the bags on before they are filled. I stuff about ten into one bag and hang that bag on the hook while I actually shop.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:28:45
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1242552
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


AwesomeO said:

PermeateFree said:

Having a number of empty bags in your trolley and trying to make room for food is not easy. You might be able to stuff 10 thin plastic bags into another, but the thicker bags, especially if they are not new take up considerably more room.

I am sure that the farmers wives will overcome and adapt. I can’t see a problem myself. If they can manage two trolleys out they can manage empty bags in.

You miss the point, it is having all the empty bags in the trolley when you are shopping.

I reckon I give farmers wives more credit than you do.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:29:39
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242553
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


AwesomeO said:

PermeateFree said:

Having a number of empty bags in your trolley and trying to make room for food is not easy. You might be able to stuff 10 thin plastic bags into another, but the thicker bags, especially if they are not new take up considerably more room.

I am sure that the farmers wives will overcome and adapt. I can’t see a problem myself. If they can manage two trolleys out they can manage empty bags in.

also, don’t you guys have the same trolleys as we do? there’s a little hook at the handle to put the bags on before they are filled. I stuff about ten into one bag and hang that bag on the hook while I actually shop.

Sounds like you city people are spoilt, whilst us poor country folk must just battle on.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:30:59
From: Arts
ID: 1242554
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


Arts said:

AwesomeO said:

I am sure that the farmers wives will overcome and adapt. I can’t see a problem myself. If they can manage two trolleys out they can manage empty bags in.

also, don’t you guys have the same trolleys as we do? there’s a little hook at the handle to put the bags on before they are filled. I stuff about ten into one bag and hang that bag on the hook while I actually shop.

Sounds like you city people are spoilt, whilst us poor country folk must just battle on.

tsk tsk.. you guys are made of tough stock.. I’m sure you’ll manage. But even if it all comes crashing down around you and country folk have to go back to using plastic, the city people should not.. because any type of reduction is better than none at all.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:31:07
From: AwesomeO
ID: 1242555
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


AwesomeO said:

PermeateFree said:

Having a number of empty bags in your trolley and trying to make room for food is not easy. You might be able to stuff 10 thin plastic bags into another, but the thicker bags, especially if they are not new take up considerably more room.

I am sure that the farmers wives will overcome and adapt. I can’t see a problem myself. If they can manage two trolleys out they can manage empty bags in.

also, don’t you guys have the same trolleys as we do? there’s a little hook at the handle to put the bags on before they are filled. I stuff about ten into one bag and hang that bag on the hook while I actually shop.

Or you can stuff them into the kiddies bit, or fill the first of your two trolleys whilst having the bags in the empty one, or fill the trolley front first then put the bags on top and fill the rear.

Permeate has an objection to this policy and has introduced a ridiculous objection…won’t anyone think of the farmers wives?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:32:02
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242556
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

AwesomeO said:


PermeateFree said:

AwesomeO said:

I am sure that the farmers wives will overcome and adapt. I can’t see a problem myself. If they can manage two trolleys out they can manage empty bags in.

You miss the point, it is having all the empty bags in the trolley when you are shopping.

I reckon I give farmers wives more credit than you do.

What’s the matter with you curve, just looking for trouble as usual. I never said these things could not be done just an inconvenience for a doubtful outcome.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:32:34
From: Ian
ID: 1242557
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

I foresaw this day coming and have been stockpiling plastic bags for about 15 years. (The integrity of the older ones is dubious.)

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:32:34
From: Arts
ID: 1242558
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

AwesomeO said:


Arts said:

AwesomeO said:

I am sure that the farmers wives will overcome and adapt. I can’t see a problem myself. If they can manage two trolleys out they can manage empty bags in.

also, don’t you guys have the same trolleys as we do? there’s a little hook at the handle to put the bags on before they are filled. I stuff about ten into one bag and hang that bag on the hook while I actually shop.

Or you can stuff them into the kiddies bit, or fill the first of your two trolleys whilst having the bags in the empty one, or fill the trolley front first then put the bags on top and fill the rear.

Permeate has an objection to this policy and has introduced a ridiculous objection…won’t anyone think of the farmers wives?

I’m a little confused as to why PF is against this idea… being the environmentally conscious person he says he is

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:33:12
From: Arts
ID: 1242559
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Ian said:


I foresaw this day coming and have been stockpiling plastic bags for about 15 years. (The integrity of the older ones is dubious.)

don’t use the older ones to pick up dog poo… probably

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:33:41
From: party_pants
ID: 1242560
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

AwesomeO said:


Arts said:

AwesomeO said:

I am sure that the farmers wives will overcome and adapt. I can’t see a problem myself. If they can manage two trolleys out they can manage empty bags in.

also, don’t you guys have the same trolleys as we do? there’s a little hook at the handle to put the bags on before they are filled. I stuff about ten into one bag and hang that bag on the hook while I actually shop.

Or you can stuff them into the kiddies bit, or fill the first of your two trolleys whilst having the bags in the empty one, or fill the trolley front first then put the bags on top and fill the rear.

Permeate has an objection to this policy and has introduced a ridiculous objection…won’t anyone think of the farmers wives?

It could be a question on the next series of Farmer Wants a Wife: what is your strategy for supermarket shopping without plastic bags?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:34:32
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242561
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


PermeateFree said:

Arts said:

also, don’t you guys have the same trolleys as we do? there’s a little hook at the handle to put the bags on before they are filled. I stuff about ten into one bag and hang that bag on the hook while I actually shop.

Sounds like you city people are spoilt, whilst us poor country folk must just battle on.

tsk tsk.. you guys are made of tough stock.. I’m sure you’ll manage. But even if it all comes crashing down around you and country folk have to go back to using plastic, the city people should not.. because any type of reduction is better than none at all.

I don’t know where all the plastic bag enter the environment, certainly not where I go. I think most would be around the city or highly populated areas.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:34:34
From: Ian
ID: 1242562
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


Ian said:

I foresaw this day coming and have been stockpiling plastic bags for about 15 years. (The integrity of the older ones is dubious.)

don’t use the older ones to pick up dog poo… probably

I never pick up dog poo.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:36:11
From: party_pants
ID: 1242563
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


AwesomeO said:

Arts said:

also, don’t you guys have the same trolleys as we do? there’s a little hook at the handle to put the bags on before they are filled. I stuff about ten into one bag and hang that bag on the hook while I actually shop.

Or you can stuff them into the kiddies bit, or fill the first of your two trolleys whilst having the bags in the empty one, or fill the trolley front first then put the bags on top and fill the rear.

Permeate has an objection to this policy and has introduced a ridiculous objection…won’t anyone think of the farmers wives?

I’m a little confused as to why PF is against this idea… being the environmentally conscious person he says he is

Because it doesn’t go far enough. It is only about less bags ending up as litter, it does not address the energy consumption issues that go into making the alternative thicker and stronger reusable bags.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:40:44
From: Arts
ID: 1242564
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


Arts said:

AwesomeO said:

Or you can stuff them into the kiddies bit, or fill the first of your two trolleys whilst having the bags in the empty one, or fill the trolley front first then put the bags on top and fill the rear.

Permeate has an objection to this policy and has introduced a ridiculous objection…won’t anyone think of the farmers wives?

I’m a little confused as to why PF is against this idea… being the environmentally conscious person he says he is

Because it doesn’t go far enough. It is only about less bags ending up as litter, it does not address the energy consumption issues that go into making the alternative thicker and stronger reusable bags.

I think the bigger picture starts with a small brush stroke

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:42:01
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242565
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


AwesomeO said:

Arts said:

also, don’t you guys have the same trolleys as we do? there’s a little hook at the handle to put the bags on before they are filled. I stuff about ten into one bag and hang that bag on the hook while I actually shop.

Or you can stuff them into the kiddies bit, or fill the first of your two trolleys whilst having the bags in the empty one, or fill the trolley front first then put the bags on top and fill the rear.

Permeate has an objection to this policy and has introduced a ridiculous objection…won’t anyone think of the farmers wives?

I’m a little confused as to why PF is against this idea… being the environmentally conscious person he says he is

Because doing away with the light polythene bags is going to create more environmental problems. Someone said here recently that they prefer the old thick paper-bags, but these are probably the worse environmental outcome of any bags. Plastic bags represent a very minor part of the plastic pollution, all my rubbish is of plastic packaging and it is the plastic bags that hold it together.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:47:30
From: Ian
ID: 1242566
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Dope is the only hope. (Hemp)

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:54:56
From: Arts
ID: 1242569
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


Arts said:

AwesomeO said:

Or you can stuff them into the kiddies bit, or fill the first of your two trolleys whilst having the bags in the empty one, or fill the trolley front first then put the bags on top and fill the rear.

Permeate has an objection to this policy and has introduced a ridiculous objection…won’t anyone think of the farmers wives?

I’m a little confused as to why PF is against this idea… being the environmentally conscious person he says he is

Because doing away with the light polythene bags is going to create more environmental problems. Someone said here recently that they prefer the old thick paper-bags, but these are probably the worse environmental outcome of any bags. Plastic bags represent a very minor part of the plastic pollution, all my rubbish is of plastic packaging and it is the plastic bags that hold it together.

I agree that paper is worse environmentally, I still maintain that a small step is better than none at all. Also agree about plastic bottle consumption (drinks and products) and would like to see a huge reduction in these .. but am willing and hopeful that an awareness of one lot of change will transpose to another. I saw a bar form of shampoo and conditioner the other day.. that’s pretty inventive… no plastic bottle to store it in and the bar disappears. This whole thing has made me rethink the use of plastic and I like to think I was already somewhat conscious of the issue.. but I am now looking at all the things that are in plastic and thinking of alternatives (like the shampoo bar) .. so starting a mindset change is a good step, however small

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 15:55:24
From: Arts
ID: 1242570
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


PermeateFree said:

Arts said:

I’m a little confused as to why PF is against this idea… being the environmentally conscious person he says he is

Because doing away with the light polythene bags is going to create more environmental problems. Someone said here recently that they prefer the old thick paper-bags, but these are probably the worse environmental outcome of any bags. Plastic bags represent a very minor part of the plastic pollution, all my rubbish is of plastic packaging and it is the plastic bags that hold it together.

I agree that paper is worse environmentally, I still maintain that a small step is better than none at all. Also agree about plastic bottle consumption (drinks and products) and would like to see a huge reduction in these .. but am willing and hopeful that an awareness of one lot of change will transpose to another. I saw a bar form of shampoo and conditioner the other day.. that’s pretty inventive… no plastic bottle to store it in and the bar disappears. This whole thing has made me rethink the use of plastic and I like to think I was already somewhat conscious of the issue.. but I am now looking at all the things that are in plastic and thinking of alternatives (like the shampoo bar) .. so starting a mindset change is a good step, however small

of course, if all this ends up a bandaid thing, it’s fucked

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:01:12
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242573
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


PermeateFree said:

Arts said:

I’m a little confused as to why PF is against this idea… being the environmentally conscious person he says he is

Because doing away with the light polythene bags is going to create more environmental problems. Someone said here recently that they prefer the old thick paper-bags, but these are probably the worse environmental outcome of any bags. Plastic bags represent a very minor part of the plastic pollution, all my rubbish is of plastic packaging and it is the plastic bags that hold it together.

I agree that paper is worse environmentally, I still maintain that a small step is better than none at all. Also agree about plastic bottle consumption (drinks and products) and would like to see a huge reduction in these .. but am willing and hopeful that an awareness of one lot of change will transpose to another. I saw a bar form of shampoo and conditioner the other day.. that’s pretty inventive… no plastic bottle to store it in and the bar disappears. This whole thing has made me rethink the use of plastic and I like to think I was already somewhat conscious of the issue.. but I am now looking at all the things that are in plastic and thinking of alternatives (like the shampoo bar) .. so starting a mindset change is a good step, however small

I presume you were not one of the people who discard their rubbish, but unfortunately the people that do are still out there and will carry-on regardless. The real job is to tackle the people that cause the trouble, if you can do that I will give you full credit, but to just ban polybags is not going to do it.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:03:18
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1242574
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


PermeateFree said:

Arts said:

I’m a little confused as to why PF is against this idea… being the environmentally conscious person he says he is

Because doing away with the light polythene bags is going to create more environmental problems. Someone said here recently that they prefer the old thick paper-bags, but these are probably the worse environmental outcome of any bags. Plastic bags represent a very minor part of the plastic pollution, all my rubbish is of plastic packaging and it is the plastic bags that hold it together.

I agree that paper is worse environmentally, I still maintain that a small step is better than none at all. Also agree about plastic bottle consumption (drinks and products) and would like to see a huge reduction in these .. but am willing and hopeful that an awareness of one lot of change will transpose to another. I saw a bar form of shampoo and conditioner the other day.. that’s pretty inventive… no plastic bottle to store it in and the bar disappears. This whole thing has made me rethink the use of plastic and I like to think I was already somewhat conscious of the issue.. but I am now looking at all the things that are in plastic and thinking of alternatives (like the shampoo bar) .. so starting a mindset change is a good step, however small

Why is paper worse environmentally?

Not disagreeing, I don’t know, but it isn’t obvious to me that paper is worse than plastic.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:04:37
From: captain_spalding
ID: 1242575
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

I was wondering what to about liners for the kitchen tidy after July 01.

Then, i realised that there’s going to be no reduction in the junk mail that supermarkets have delivered to our letterbox – it could even increase.

Bin-lining problem solved. Thanks Woollies, thanks Coles.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:07:08
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242576
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


Arts said:

PermeateFree said:

Because doing away with the light polythene bags is going to create more environmental problems. Someone said here recently that they prefer the old thick paper-bags, but these are probably the worse environmental outcome of any bags. Plastic bags represent a very minor part of the plastic pollution, all my rubbish is of plastic packaging and it is the plastic bags that hold it together.

I agree that paper is worse environmentally, I still maintain that a small step is better than none at all. Also agree about plastic bottle consumption (drinks and products) and would like to see a huge reduction in these .. but am willing and hopeful that an awareness of one lot of change will transpose to another. I saw a bar form of shampoo and conditioner the other day.. that’s pretty inventive… no plastic bottle to store it in and the bar disappears. This whole thing has made me rethink the use of plastic and I like to think I was already somewhat conscious of the issue.. but I am now looking at all the things that are in plastic and thinking of alternatives (like the shampoo bar) .. so starting a mindset change is a good step, however small

of course, if all this ends up a bandaid thing, it’s fucked

Banning polybags was the easiest thing to do as the retailers will not only save money, but make it too on bag sales. It is also easy to sell to the public to say all the marine animals are eating them, yet most of the plastics they eat are not polybags. It is a highly deceptive promotion by pseudo-conservationists that for social reasons think it will make them look good.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:08:00
From: Arts
ID: 1242577
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

The Rev Dodgson said:


Arts said:

PermeateFree said:

Because doing away with the light polythene bags is going to create more environmental problems. Someone said here recently that they prefer the old thick paper-bags, but these are probably the worse environmental outcome of any bags. Plastic bags represent a very minor part of the plastic pollution, all my rubbish is of plastic packaging and it is the plastic bags that hold it together.

I agree that paper is worse environmentally, I still maintain that a small step is better than none at all. Also agree about plastic bottle consumption (drinks and products) and would like to see a huge reduction in these .. but am willing and hopeful that an awareness of one lot of change will transpose to another. I saw a bar form of shampoo and conditioner the other day.. that’s pretty inventive… no plastic bottle to store it in and the bar disappears. This whole thing has made me rethink the use of plastic and I like to think I was already somewhat conscious of the issue.. but I am now looking at all the things that are in plastic and thinking of alternatives (like the shampoo bar) .. so starting a mindset change is a good step, however small

Why is paper worse environmentally?

Not disagreeing, I don’t know, but it isn’t obvious to me that paper is worse than plastic.

paper manufacture is more resource intensive than plastic, paper is one use on the whole, while plastic bags are reused more by consumers. Because paper is thicker there is more tonnage to plastic, actually creating more waste and resulting decomp emissions. and trees, with tons of living thing in them…

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:10:29
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242579
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

The Rev Dodgson said:


Arts said:

PermeateFree said:

Because doing away with the light polythene bags is going to create more environmental problems. Someone said here recently that they prefer the old thick paper-bags, but these are probably the worse environmental outcome of any bags. Plastic bags represent a very minor part of the plastic pollution, all my rubbish is of plastic packaging and it is the plastic bags that hold it together.

I agree that paper is worse environmentally, I still maintain that a small step is better than none at all. Also agree about plastic bottle consumption (drinks and products) and would like to see a huge reduction in these .. but am willing and hopeful that an awareness of one lot of change will transpose to another. I saw a bar form of shampoo and conditioner the other day.. that’s pretty inventive… no plastic bottle to store it in and the bar disappears. This whole thing has made me rethink the use of plastic and I like to think I was already somewhat conscious of the issue.. but I am now looking at all the things that are in plastic and thinking of alternatives (like the shampoo bar) .. so starting a mindset change is a good step, however small

Why is paper worse environmentally?

Not disagreeing, I don’t know, but it isn’t obvious to me that paper is worse than plastic.

The cost of making the paper-bag, First you need to get the trees, transport them to where they can processed. When in paper form it needs to go through several machines to make the bag. All these operations use energy that is building co2 levels in the atmosphere.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:10:35
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1242580
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


The Rev Dodgson said:

Arts said:

I agree that paper is worse environmentally, I still maintain that a small step is better than none at all. Also agree about plastic bottle consumption (drinks and products) and would like to see a huge reduction in these .. but am willing and hopeful that an awareness of one lot of change will transpose to another. I saw a bar form of shampoo and conditioner the other day.. that’s pretty inventive… no plastic bottle to store it in and the bar disappears. This whole thing has made me rethink the use of plastic and I like to think I was already somewhat conscious of the issue.. but I am now looking at all the things that are in plastic and thinking of alternatives (like the shampoo bar) .. so starting a mindset change is a good step, however small

Why is paper worse environmentally?

Not disagreeing, I don’t know, but it isn’t obvious to me that paper is worse than plastic.

paper manufacture is more resource intensive than plastic, paper is one use on the whole, while plastic bags are reused more by consumers. Because paper is thicker there is more tonnage to plastic, actually creating more waste and resulting decomp emissions. and trees, with tons of living thing in them…

plantation timber. and there is not much wildlife in a pine plantation.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:12:47
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242581
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


Arts said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why is paper worse environmentally?

Not disagreeing, I don’t know, but it isn’t obvious to me that paper is worse than plastic.

paper manufacture is more resource intensive than plastic, paper is one use on the whole, while plastic bags are reused more by consumers. Because paper is thicker there is more tonnage to plastic, actually creating more waste and resulting decomp emissions. and trees, with tons of living thing in them…

plantation timber. and there is not much wildlife in a pine plantation.

Cockatoos like them.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:12:57
From: party_pants
ID: 1242582
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


Arts said:

Arts said:

I agree that paper is worse environmentally, I still maintain that a small step is better than none at all. Also agree about plastic bottle consumption (drinks and products) and would like to see a huge reduction in these .. but am willing and hopeful that an awareness of one lot of change will transpose to another. I saw a bar form of shampoo and conditioner the other day.. that’s pretty inventive… no plastic bottle to store it in and the bar disappears. This whole thing has made me rethink the use of plastic and I like to think I was already somewhat conscious of the issue.. but I am now looking at all the things that are in plastic and thinking of alternatives (like the shampoo bar) .. so starting a mindset change is a good step, however small

of course, if all this ends up a bandaid thing, it’s fucked

Banning polybags was the easiest thing to do as the retailers will not only save money, but make it too on bag sales. It is also easy to sell to the public to say all the marine animals are eating them, yet most of the plastics they eat are not polybags. It is a highly deceptive promotion by pseudo-conservationists that for social reasons think it will make them look good.

here we go…

big business
profit
conspiracy
sheeple
tokenism
no true Scotsman

tinfoil hat stuff.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:13:09
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1242583
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


Arts said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why is paper worse environmentally?

Not disagreeing, I don’t know, but it isn’t obvious to me that paper is worse than plastic.

paper manufacture is more resource intensive than plastic, paper is one use on the whole, while plastic bags are reused more by consumers. Because paper is thicker there is more tonnage to plastic, actually creating more waste and resulting decomp emissions. and trees, with tons of living thing in them…

plantation timber. and there is not much wildlife in a pine plantation.

plus most of the product in paper bags, cardboard, newsprint, etc is recycled paper. very little is new fibre. you need some new fibre because you need the length to give the product some strength.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:15:22
From: The Rev Dodgson
ID: 1242584
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


Arts said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why is paper worse environmentally?

Not disagreeing, I don’t know, but it isn’t obvious to me that paper is worse than plastic.

paper manufacture is more resource intensive than plastic, paper is one use on the whole, while plastic bags are reused more by consumers. Because paper is thicker there is more tonnage to plastic, actually creating more waste and resulting decomp emissions. and trees, with tons of living thing in them…

plantation timber. and there is not much wildlife in a pine plantation.

Also waste paper can either be buried as a form of carbon sequestration, or collect and use emitted methane.

I don’t know how that works out relative to the costs though.

If we had a CO2 emission price we could let the market sort it out, but it seems the current government prefers central government control of these things.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:16:09
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1242585
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

So, what’s the legislation in states other than Qld?

Best info I can find is wikipedia.

Qld & WA on 1 July this year.
SA, NT, ACT, Tas have all had it since at least 2013.

Vic info is contradictory. I gather it’s to be implemented at an unknown date later this year, but it could have already have been implemented? The draconian Vic legislation I quoted earlier was scheduled for last year.

NSW not banned.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:16:44
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242586
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


PermeateFree said:

Arts said:

of course, if all this ends up a bandaid thing, it’s fucked

Banning polybags was the easiest thing to do as the retailers will not only save money, but make it too on bag sales. It is also easy to sell to the public to say all the marine animals are eating them, yet most of the plastics they eat are not polybags. It is a highly deceptive promotion by pseudo-conservationists that for social reasons think it will make them look good.

here we go…

big business
profit
conspiracy
sheeple
tokenism
no true Scotsman

tinfoil hat stuff.

Conservation involves many things and rarely includes socialites sitting around sipping their lattes.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:17:01
From: Arts
ID: 1242587
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


Arts said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

Why is paper worse environmentally?

Not disagreeing, I don’t know, but it isn’t obvious to me that paper is worse than plastic.

paper manufacture is more resource intensive than plastic, paper is one use on the whole, while plastic bags are reused more by consumers. Because paper is thicker there is more tonnage to plastic, actually creating more waste and resulting decomp emissions. and trees, with tons of living thing in them…

plantation timber. and there is not much wildlife in a pine plantation.

O’RLY? beside the destruction of ‘natural habitat’…
https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-128.pdf

Results/Key findings
Many studies of the biota of Australian conifer (Pinus) plantations have been completed in the past 30
years. In comparison there have been far fewer investigations of eucalypt plantations. However the
work completed to date has demonstrated that:
(1) Although some species are rare or absent from plantations, these areas are not biological deserts.
(2) The assemblage of native species that inhabit plantation landscapes will be different to that which
occurs in landscapes dominated by large areas of grazing land.
(3) Remnant native vegetation within the boundaries of plantations is valuable for many species of
native animals ranging from invertebrates to mammals.
(4) More species occur in parts of plantation landscapes that contain remnant vegetation than in
plantation monocultures.
(5) The size and shape of patches of remnant vegetation within plantations can have an important
influence on which species can persist in such landscapes. However, even relatively small patches
(including individual paddock trees) can be useful for some species of native fauna.
(6) Stands of plantation trees adjacent to patches of remnant native vegetation support more species
than more isolated stands of plantation trees.
(7) Riparian areas can be particularly valuable for wildlife and may act as dispersal routes for some
taxa.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:18:42
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1242588
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Waste paper is the USA’s biggest export.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:19:20
From: party_pants
ID: 1242589
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

Banning polybags was the easiest thing to do as the retailers will not only save money, but make it too on bag sales. It is also easy to sell to the public to say all the marine animals are eating them, yet most of the plastics they eat are not polybags. It is a highly deceptive promotion by pseudo-conservationists that for social reasons think it will make them look good.

here we go…

big business
profit
conspiracy
sheeple
tokenism
no true Scotsman

tinfoil hat stuff.

Conservation involves many things and rarely includes socialites sitting around sipping their lattes.

I’m more your outer-suburbs dumbarse bogan than your inner city latte sipping type.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:19:55
From: roughbarked
ID: 1242590
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


ChrispenEvan said:

Arts said:

paper manufacture is more resource intensive than plastic, paper is one use on the whole, while plastic bags are reused more by consumers. Because paper is thicker there is more tonnage to plastic, actually creating more waste and resulting decomp emissions. and trees, with tons of living thing in them…

plantation timber. and there is not much wildlife in a pine plantation.

O’RLY? beside the destruction of ‘natural habitat’…
https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-128.pdf

Results/Key findings
Many studies of the biota of Australian conifer (Pinus) plantations have been completed in the past 30
years. In comparison there have been far fewer investigations of eucalypt plantations. However the
work completed to date has demonstrated that:
(1) Although some species are rare or absent from plantations, these areas are not biological deserts.
(2) The assemblage of native species that inhabit plantation landscapes will be different to that which
occurs in landscapes dominated by large areas of grazing land.
(3) Remnant native vegetation within the boundaries of plantations is valuable for many species of
native animals ranging from invertebrates to mammals.
(4) More species occur in parts of plantation landscapes that contain remnant vegetation than in
plantation monocultures.
(5) The size and shape of patches of remnant vegetation within plantations can have an important
influence on which species can persist in such landscapes. However, even relatively small patches
(including individual paddock trees) can be useful for some species of native fauna.
(6) Stands of plantation trees adjacent to patches of remnant native vegetation support more species
than more isolated stands of plantation trees.
(7) Riparian areas can be particularly valuable for wildlife and may act as dispersal routes for some
taxa.

Native species of wildlife are adapting or perishing. Mostly it is perishing.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:20:31
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1242591
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


ChrispenEvan said:

Arts said:

paper manufacture is more resource intensive than plastic, paper is one use on the whole, while plastic bags are reused more by consumers. Because paper is thicker there is more tonnage to plastic, actually creating more waste and resulting decomp emissions. and trees, with tons of living thing in them…

plantation timber. and there is not much wildlife in a pine plantation.

O’RLY? beside the destruction of ‘natural habitat’…
https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-128.pdf

Results/Key findings
Many studies of the biota of Australian conifer (Pinus) plantations have been completed in the past 30
years. In comparison there have been far fewer investigations of eucalypt plantations. However the
work completed to date has demonstrated that:
(1) Although some species are rare or absent from plantations, these areas are not biological deserts.
(2) The assemblage of native species that inhabit plantation landscapes will be different to that which
occurs in landscapes dominated by large areas of grazing land.
(3) Remnant native vegetation within the boundaries of plantations is valuable for many species of
native animals ranging from invertebrates to mammals.
(4) More species occur in parts of plantation landscapes that contain remnant vegetation than in
plantation monocultures.
(5) The size and shape of patches of remnant vegetation within plantations can have an important
influence on which species can persist in such landscapes. However, even relatively small patches
(including individual paddock trees) can be useful for some species of native fauna.
(6) Stands of plantation trees adjacent to patches of remnant native vegetation support more species
than more isolated stands of plantation trees.
(7) Riparian areas can be particularly valuable for wildlife and may act as dispersal routes for some
taxa.

Like i said not much wildlife in plantation stands.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:21:37
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242592
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


PermeateFree said:

party_pants said:

here we go…

big business
profit
conspiracy
sheeple
tokenism
no true Scotsman

tinfoil hat stuff.

Conservation involves many things and rarely includes socialites sitting around sipping their lattes.

I’m more your outer-suburbs dumbarse bogan than your inner city latte sipping type.

Don’t worry I was not including you, I was referring to high placed socialites.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:23:35
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1242594
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Paper is not waterproof.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:26:09
From: Arts
ID: 1242595
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


Arts said:

ChrispenEvan said:

plantation timber. and there is not much wildlife in a pine plantation.

O’RLY? beside the destruction of ‘natural habitat’…
https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-128.pdf

Results/Key findings
Many studies of the biota of Australian conifer (Pinus) plantations have been completed in the past 30
years. In comparison there have been far fewer investigations of eucalypt plantations. However the
work completed to date has demonstrated that:
(1) Although some species are rare or absent from plantations, these areas are not biological deserts.
(2) The assemblage of native species that inhabit plantation landscapes will be different to that which
occurs in landscapes dominated by large areas of grazing land.
(3) Remnant native vegetation within the boundaries of plantations is valuable for many species of
native animals ranging from invertebrates to mammals.
(4) More species occur in parts of plantation landscapes that contain remnant vegetation than in
plantation monocultures.
(5) The size and shape of patches of remnant vegetation within plantations can have an important
influence on which species can persist in such landscapes. However, even relatively small patches
(including individual paddock trees) can be useful for some species of native fauna.
(6) Stands of plantation trees adjacent to patches of remnant native vegetation support more species
than more isolated stands of plantation trees.
(7) Riparian areas can be particularly valuable for wildlife and may act as dispersal routes for some
taxa.

Like i said not much wildlife in plantation stands.

yeah and what trees we destroy for the plantation. fuck em

and what is there fuck them too… stupid animals should have evolved by now anyway

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:27:45
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1242596
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Arts said:


ChrispenEvan said:

Arts said:

O’RLY? beside the destruction of ‘natural habitat’…
https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-128.pdf

Results/Key findings
Many studies of the biota of Australian conifer (Pinus) plantations have been completed in the past 30
years. In comparison there have been far fewer investigations of eucalypt plantations. However the
work completed to date has demonstrated that:
(1) Although some species are rare or absent from plantations, these areas are not biological deserts.
(2) The assemblage of native species that inhabit plantation landscapes will be different to that which
occurs in landscapes dominated by large areas of grazing land.
(3) Remnant native vegetation within the boundaries of plantations is valuable for many species of
native animals ranging from invertebrates to mammals.
(4) More species occur in parts of plantation landscapes that contain remnant vegetation than in
plantation monocultures.
(5) The size and shape of patches of remnant vegetation within plantations can have an important
influence on which species can persist in such landscapes. However, even relatively small patches
(including individual paddock trees) can be useful for some species of native fauna.
(6) Stands of plantation trees adjacent to patches of remnant native vegetation support more species
than more isolated stands of plantation trees.
(7) Riparian areas can be particularly valuable for wildlife and may act as dispersal routes for some
taxa.

Like i said not much wildlife in plantation stands.

yeah and what trees we destroy for the plantation. fuck em

and what is there fuck them too… stupid animals should have evolved by now anyway

actually the main concern is using good farmland for plantations.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:32:15
From: roughbarked
ID: 1242598
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


Arts said:

ChrispenEvan said:

plantation timber. and there is not much wildlife in a pine plantation.

O’RLY? beside the destruction of ‘natural habitat’…
https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-128.pdf

Results/Key findings
Many studies of the biota of Australian conifer (Pinus) plantations have been completed in the past 30
years. In comparison there have been far fewer investigations of eucalypt plantations. However the
work completed to date has demonstrated that:
(1) Although some species are rare or absent from plantations, these areas are not biological deserts.
(2) The assemblage of native species that inhabit plantation landscapes will be different to that which
occurs in landscapes dominated by large areas of grazing land.
(3) Remnant native vegetation within the boundaries of plantations is valuable for many species of
native animals ranging from invertebrates to mammals.
(4) More species occur in parts of plantation landscapes that contain remnant vegetation than in
plantation monocultures.
(5) The size and shape of patches of remnant vegetation within plantations can have an important
influence on which species can persist in such landscapes. However, even relatively small patches
(including individual paddock trees) can be useful for some species of native fauna.
(6) Stands of plantation trees adjacent to patches of remnant native vegetation support more species
than more isolated stands of plantation trees.
(7) Riparian areas can be particularly valuable for wildlife and may act as dispersal routes for some
taxa.

Like i said not much wildlife in plantation stands.

Not conducive to most native wildlife.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:32:45
From: roughbarked
ID: 1242599
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

mollwollfumble said:


Paper is not waterproof.

Baking paper is.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:34:06
From: roughbarked
ID: 1242600
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


Arts said:

ChrispenEvan said:

Like i said not much wildlife in plantation stands.

yeah and what trees we destroy for the plantation. fuck em

and what is there fuck them too… stupid animals should have evolved by now anyway

actually the main concern is using good farmland for plantations.

Most of the farmland they cleared is marginal at best. The rest now has cities on it.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:34:57
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1242602
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

you can heat water in a paper bag over an open flame.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:35:51
From: party_pants
ID: 1242603
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


Arts said:

ChrispenEvan said:

Like i said not much wildlife in plantation stands.

yeah and what trees we destroy for the plantation. fuck em

and what is there fuck them too… stupid animals should have evolved by now anyway

actually the main concern is using good farmland for plantations.

yeah, we should plant trees in the desert.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:35:55
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1242604
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


Arts said:

ChrispenEvan said:

Like i said not much wildlife in plantation stands.

yeah and what trees we destroy for the plantation. fuck em

and what is there fuck them too… stupid animals should have evolved by now anyway

actually the main concern is using good farmland for plantations.

The farmers seem pretty shit at farming here (drought, oh no we’re going broke, we can’t manage…) so why not try growing wood on their land ;)

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:37:37
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1242605
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

some of you guys really need to get some farmer friends.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:38:32
From: roughbarked
ID: 1242608
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


ChrispenEvan said:

Arts said:

yeah and what trees we destroy for the plantation. fuck em

and what is there fuck them too… stupid animals should have evolved by now anyway

actually the main concern is using good farmland for plantations.

yeah, we should plant trees in the desert.

The camels wouldn’t let them live.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:39:06
From: btm
ID: 1242609
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


you can heat water in a paper bag over an open flame.

Haven’t tried that, but I have boiled water in a styrofoam cup over a Bunsen burner.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:39:17
From: roughbarked
ID: 1242610
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


some of you guys really need to get some farmer friends.

Dunno. They aren’t usually very smart.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:40:18
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1242611
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

btm said:


ChrispenEvan said:

you can heat water in a paper bag over an open flame.

Haven’t tried that, but I have boiled water in a styrofoam cup over a Bunsen burner.

I have heated water to around 38 degrees in my bare hand!

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:41:07
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1242612
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

roughbarked said:


ChrispenEvan said:

some of you guys really need to get some farmer friends.

Dunno. They aren’t usually very smart.

really?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:42:14
From: roughbarked
ID: 1242613
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


roughbarked said:

ChrispenEvan said:

some of you guys really need to get some farmer friends.

Dunno. They aren’t usually very smart.

really?

Not around here anyway.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 16:45:00
From: roughbarked
ID: 1242617
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

roughbarked said:


ChrispenEvan said:

roughbarked said:

Dunno. They aren’t usually very smart.

really?

Not around here anyway.

One of them drove his semi straight through a giveway sign at me today. I had to take evasive action. J didn’t even try to stop and if his brakes weren’t working why was he driving his truck?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:13:58
From: sarahs mum
ID: 1242634
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

although I ticked ‘no bags’, I got six.

One for cigs/tobacco (tallyhos fine)
One for two mandarins.(all the other veg were loose in crate)
One with some small dairy in it.(cheeses, cream and sour cream)
One with deli in it.
One with freezer bits and pieces.
One with fire starters and steel wool.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:40:20
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1242638
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Andrew Bolt claims using reusable will be ‘a hassle’. I never knew life was so difficult for some people.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:42:59
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1242640
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Witty Rejoinder said:


Andrew Bolt claims using reusable will be ‘a hassle’. I never knew life was so difficult for some people.

*bags

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:44:05
From: Divine Angel
ID: 1242641
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Witty Rejoinder said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

Andrew Bolt claims using reusable will be ‘a hassle’. I never knew life was so difficult for some people.

*bags

Not to mention the people whinging about the bags. Geez, get a grip people.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:45:49
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1242643
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Witty Rejoinder said:


Andrew Bolt claims using reusable will be ‘a hassle’. I never knew life was so difficult for some people.

He’s a professional fuckwit.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:46:47
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242644
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Divine Angel said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Andrew Bolt claims using reusable will be ‘a hassle’. I never knew life was so difficult for some people.

*bags

Not to mention the people whinging about the bags. Geez, get a grip people.

I’m not using bags at all, so I suppose it makes far more environmentally conscientious.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:49:08
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1242645
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Bubblecar said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

Andrew Bolt claims using reusable will be ‘a hassle’. I never knew life was so difficult for some people.

He’s a professional fuckwit.

He’s probably virtue signalling to some other nutjobs.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:49:08
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1242646
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


Divine Angel said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

*bags

Not to mention the people whinging about the bags. Geez, get a grip people.

I’m not using bags at all, so I suppose it makes far more environmentally conscientious.

Nothing wrong with using sturdy bags to carry things in. People have been doing it since the dawn of time.

Reusable bags are your friends.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:49:47
From: Michael V
ID: 1242647
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Bubblecar said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

Andrew Bolt claims using reusable will be ‘a hassle’. I never knew life was so difficult for some people.

He’s a professional fuckwit.

Hahahahahahahaha!

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:50:56
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242648
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Bubblecar said:


PermeateFree said:

Divine Angel said:

Not to mention the people whinging about the bags. Geez, get a grip people.

I’m not using bags at all, so I suppose it makes far more environmentally conscientious.

Nothing wrong with using sturdy bags to carry things in. People have been doing it since the dawn of time.

Reusable bags are your friends.

Any bag that you use has an environmental downside.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:51:00
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1242649
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


Divine Angel said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

*bags

Not to mention the people whinging about the bags. Geez, get a grip people.

I’m not using bags at all, so I suppose it makes far more environmentally conscientious.

Do you drive your car down the aisles chucking stuff in the backseat as you go?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:53:05
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242650
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Witty Rejoinder said:


PermeateFree said:

Divine Angel said:

Not to mention the people whinging about the bags. Geez, get a grip people.

I’m not using bags at all, so I suppose it makes far more environmentally conscientious.

Do you drive your car down the aisles chucking stuff in the backseat as you go?

No I load the items back into the trolley to take to my vehicle.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:56:00
From: Bubblecar
ID: 1242653
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

PermeateFree said:

I’m not using bags at all, so I suppose it makes far more environmentally conscientious.

Do you drive your car down the aisles chucking stuff in the backseat as you go?

No I load the items back into the trolley to take to my vehicle.

So, driving a vehicle to the shops makes you more “environmentally conscientious” than someone like me who walks to the shops and carries his shopping home in reusable bags?

I DON’T THINK SO

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 17:58:04
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242657
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Bubblecar said:


PermeateFree said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Do you drive your car down the aisles chucking stuff in the backseat as you go?

No I load the items back into the trolley to take to my vehicle.

So, driving a vehicle to the shops makes you more “environmentally conscientious” than someone like me who walks to the shops and carries his shopping home in reusable bags?

I DON’T THINK SO

Not everyone can live next door to a supermarket.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 18:14:50
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242681
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Bubblecar said:


PermeateFree said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Do you drive your car down the aisles chucking stuff in the backseat as you go?

No I load the items back into the trolley to take to my vehicle.

So, driving a vehicle to the shops makes you more “environmentally conscientious” than someone like me who walks to the shops and carries his shopping home in reusable bags?

I DON’T THINK SO

Better me driving to the shops than you having forests cut down to keep you in toilet paper.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 18:43:43
From: party_pants
ID: 1242690
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


Bubblecar said:

PermeateFree said:

No I load the items back into the trolley to take to my vehicle.

So, driving a vehicle to the shops makes you more “environmentally conscientious” than someone like me who walks to the shops and carries his shopping home in reusable bags?

I DON’T THINK SO

Better me driving to the shops than you having forests cut down to keep you in toilet paper.

Do you have some other enviro-friendly alternative to toilet paper?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 18:45:55
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1242691
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


PermeateFree said:

Bubblecar said:

So, driving a vehicle to the shops makes you more “environmentally conscientious” than someone like me who walks to the shops and carries his shopping home in reusable bags?

I DON’T THINK SO

Better me driving to the shops than you having forests cut down to keep you in toilet paper.

Do you have some other enviro-friendly alternative to toilet paper?

in days of old when knights were bold and paper not invented they wiped their bum on the leaf of the gum and had to be contented.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 18:48:36
From: Witty Rejoinder
ID: 1242692
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:

Do you have some other enviro-friendly alternative to toilet paper?

Like all environmentalists he wipes his bum with some leaves and his tears.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 18:50:53
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242693
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Witty Rejoinder said:


party_pants said:

Do you have some other enviro-friendly alternative to toilet paper?

Like all environmentalists he wipes his bum with some leaves and his tears.

No you use a bidet, don’t you have one?

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 18:51:06
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1242694
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

Better me driving to the shops than you having forests cut down to keep you in toilet paper.

Do you have some other enviro-friendly alternative to toilet paper?

in days of old when knights were bold and paper not invented they wiped their bum on the leaf of the gum and had to be contented.

It’s not easy being green.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 18:54:01
From: party_pants
ID: 1242695
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


Witty Rejoinder said:

party_pants said:

Do you have some other enviro-friendly alternative to toilet paper?

Like all environmentalists he wipes his bum with some leaves and his tears.

No you use a bidet, don’t you have one?

It would use hundreds of litres of extra water per year, which in my case probably comes from desal.

Reply Quote

Date: 21/06/2018 18:55:46
From: PermeateFree
ID: 1242697
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

party_pants said:


PermeateFree said:

Witty Rejoinder said:

Like all environmentalists he wipes his bum with some leaves and his tears.

No you use a bidet, don’t you have one?

It would use hundreds of litres of extra water per year, which in my case probably comes from desal.

Ah, so you use the old wet rag tied to a stick then.

Reply Quote

Date: 22/06/2018 11:37:55
From: Cymek
ID: 1242920
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

PermeateFree said:


party_pants said:

PermeateFree said:

No you use a bidet, don’t you have one?

It would use hundreds of litres of extra water per year, which in my case probably comes from desal.

Ah, so you use the old wet rag tied to a stick then.

Perhaps they should promote higher fibre diets so you use less toilet paper when you wipe

Reply Quote

Date: 23/06/2018 11:35:08
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1243266
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Well, I haven’t noticed anything Draconian in Victoria yet. Just a lack of thin carrier bags in Woolies. When I saw the warning labels on the checkouts they looked like “out of order messages”, which held me up for a couple of seconds.

Reply Quote

Date: 30/06/2018 04:20:07
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1246305
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

buffy said:

Spider Lily said:

buffy said:
Is this the plastic bags thread? I came across another problem at the checkout the other day. I had my own bag. But no way was I going to put the cardboard container of fried chicken into it which was leaking oil. (Yes, I know I shouldn’t buy it, but 5 pieces gives me three work lunches, when combined with some biscuits or bread). The checkout people had to fossick around in a cupboard to find something to wipe it with. And the bench it had been sitting on. I was always going to carry it separately anyway as it was hot. But I got some paper towel thrown in. In the Olden Days they would have just plonked it into a plastic bag and given it to me that way. Same thing applies to the sometimes leaky packs of mince. Not really sure what the answer is to messy stuff at the checkout.

I may have missed something here, but hasn’t Victoria been plastic bag free for a year or so now?
No. Woolies stopped on the 20th June. Coles stops this weekend, I think. we don’t have an official ban, as far as I know. It’s just the big supies that decided to do it.

Officially not until November.

This is the plastic bag ban thread.

For Victoria,
Woolies and Chemist Warehouse have stopped free plastic bags, as of about a fortnight ago.

Aldi have never had free plastic bags.
I haven’t checked other retail stores.

Where did you hear November for Victoria? Wikipedia still says – date to be announced.

Reply Quote

Date: 30/06/2018 08:31:56
From: Peak Warming Man
ID: 1246311
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

It’s just a case of The Big End of Town denying hard working Australian families their right to free plastic bags.

Reply Quote

Date: 30/06/2018 08:37:06
From: roughbarked
ID: 1246313
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Peak Warming Man said:


It’s just a case of The Big End of Town denying hard working Australian families their right to free plastic bags.

In that case, I’m rich in having a huge hoard of them.

Reply Quote

Date: 30/06/2018 08:44:40
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1246314
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

buffy said:

I just went to Woolies. They had a container of milk start to split in the selfserve checkouts and the staff immediately went to grab a plastic bag…which wasn’t there. The guys on the checkouts can’t reach the 15c bags.

Reply Quote

Date: 30/06/2018 08:46:31
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1246315
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

roughbarked said:


Peak Warming Man said:

It’s just a case of The Big End of Town denying hard working Australian families their right to free plastic bags.

In that case, I’m rich in having a huge hoard of them.

Taking this more seriously, there needs to be a census of environmental garbage.

With separate categories for urban beach, public park, kerbside and remote beach. In each state.

Where possible, track each item back to its manufacturer.

Fragments of items count as full items.

Reply Quote

Date: 30/06/2018 09:01:35
From: poikilotherm
ID: 1246322
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

mollwollfumble said:


roughbarked said:

Peak Warming Man said:

It’s just a case of The Big End of Town denying hard working Australian families their right to free plastic bags.

In that case, I’m rich in having a huge hoard of them.

Taking this more seriously, there needs to be a census of environmental garbage.

With separate categories for urban beach, public park, kerbside and remote beach. In each state.

Where possible, track each item back to its manufacturer.

Fragments of items count as full items.

I like the idea of making packaging waste the responsibility of the manufacturer, be hard, but would at least cause some innovation/changes in packaging as they tried to remain competitive and not breach legislation.

Reply Quote

Date: 30/06/2018 09:02:44
From: Stumpy_seahorse
ID: 1246324
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

mollwollfumble said:


buffy said:

Spider Lily said:

buffy said:
Is this the plastic bags thread? I came across another problem at the checkout the other day. I had my own bag. But no way was I going to put the cardboard container of fried chicken into it which was leaking oil. (Yes, I know I shouldn’t buy it, but 5 pieces gives me three work lunches, when combined with some biscuits or bread). The checkout people had to fossick around in a cupboard to find something to wipe it with. And the bench it had been sitting on. I was always going to carry it separately anyway as it was hot. But I got some paper towel thrown in. In the Olden Days they would have just plonked it into a plastic bag and given it to me that way. Same thing applies to the sometimes leaky packs of mince. Not really sure what the answer is to messy stuff at the checkout.

I may have missed something here, but hasn’t Victoria been plastic bag free for a year or so now?
No. Woolies stopped on the 20th June. Coles stops this weekend, I think. we don’t have an official ban, as far as I know. It’s just the big supies that decided to do it.

Officially not until November.

This is the plastic bag ban thread.

For Victoria,
Woolies and Chemist Warehouse have stopped free plastic bags, as of about a fortnight ago.

Aldi have never had free plastic bags.
I haven’t checked other retail stores.

Where did you hear November for Victoria? Wikipedia still says – date to be announced.

both in SA and in Tas (which have been SUO plastic bag free for a while now, they have rolls of the bags from the fruit and veg ssections that they put meat in for you at the checkout.
I mean really other states, it’s not rocket science, if taswegiens can get the hang of it, surely anyone short of a total lobotomy can…

Reply Quote

Date: 30/06/2018 09:03:43
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1246326
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Off topic, but amusing.

You can calculate the population of a district accurately, within +-2%, directly from the amount of plastic thrown away. In the USA.

https://foresternetwork.com/daily/waste/a-garbage-census/

Reply Quote

Date: 30/06/2018 09:29:20
From: Michael V
ID: 1246329
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

mollwollfumble said:


roughbarked said:

Peak Warming Man said:

It’s just a case of The Big End of Town denying hard working Australian families their right to free plastic bags.

In that case, I’m rich in having a huge hoard of them.

Taking this more seriously, there needs to be a census of environmental garbage.

With separate categories for urban beach, public park, kerbside and remote beach. In each state.

Where possible, track each item back to its manufacturer.

Fragments of items count as full items.

OK.

Reply Quote

Date: 30/06/2018 09:35:22
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1246332
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

first they took our guns, now they’ve taken our free single use plastic bags. what next? wake up sheeple!

Reply Quote

Date: 30/06/2018 09:37:49
From: Stumpy_seahorse
ID: 1246334
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


first they took our guns, now they’ve taken our free single use plastic bags. what next? wake up sheeple!

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2018 05:10:13
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1246736
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

I should have thought of it earlier. The advent of free single use plastic bags eventually led to an enormous reduction in the presence of used condoms in the environment. How are Qld, WA, SA and Tasmania coping with the used condom problem now?

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2018 05:48:35
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1246740
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Back in the 70’s and early 80’s Franklins used to have a railed area in front of the checkouts. The staff filling the shelves used to toss opened cartons into the fenced area and customers used to pull out the boxes to pack there groceries into. win win situation

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2018 06:05:17
From: mollwollfumble
ID: 1246743
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

monkey skipper said:


Back in the 70’s and early 80’s Franklins used to have a railed area in front of the checkouts. The staff filling the shelves used to toss opened cartons into the fenced area and customers used to pull out the boxes to pack there groceries into. win win situation

Yeah, shithouse system, Bunnings still uses it. Last time I used one of their free cartons was 5 years ago.

Doesn’t answer my question about “used condoms”.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2018 06:19:30
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1246746
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

mollwollfumble said:


monkey skipper said:

Back in the 70’s and early 80’s Franklins used to have a railed area in front of the checkouts. The staff filling the shelves used to toss opened cartons into the fenced area and customers used to pull out the boxes to pack there groceries into. win win situation

Yeah, shithouse system, Bunnings still uses it. Last time I used one of their free cartons was 5 years ago.

Doesn’t answer my question about “used condoms”.

I don’t think they are shithouse. A net search doesn’t bring up anything on condoms. I think education and wawreness programs and bins in mens and public access toiletsfor bio-hazards might be a start. Women’s toilets have bins for femine hygiene products and bot genders have the needle bins usually these days

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2018 06:21:21
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1246747
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

monkey skipper said:


mollwollfumble said:

monkey skipper said:

Back in the 70’s and early 80’s Franklins used to have a railed area in front of the checkouts. The staff filling the shelves used to toss opened cartons into the fenced area and customers used to pull out the boxes to pack there groceries into. win win situation

Yeah, shithouse system, Bunnings still uses it. Last time I used one of their free cartons was 5 years ago.

Doesn’t answer my question about “used condoms”.

edits:

I don’t think they are shithouse. A net search doesn’t bring up anything on condoms. I think education and awareness programs and bins in men’s and public access toilets for bio-hazards might be a start. Women’s toilets have bins for feminine hygiene products and both genders have the needle bins usually these days

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2018 06:56:30
From: Stumpy_seahorse
ID: 1246748
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

monkey skipper said:


Back in the 70’s and early 80’s Franklins used to have a railed area in front of the checkouts. The staff filling the shelves used to toss opened cartons into the fenced area and customers used to pull out the boxes to pack there groceries into. win win situation

IGA still does this

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2018 06:57:57
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1246749
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Stumpy_seahorse said:


monkey skipper said:

Back in the 70’s and early 80’s Franklins used to have a railed area in front of the checkouts. The staff filling the shelves used to toss opened cartons into the fenced area and customers used to pull out the boxes to pack there groceries into. win win situation

IGA still does this

the one near here doesn’t .

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2018 06:58:56
From: Stumpy_seahorse
ID: 1246750
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

mollwollfumble said:


I should have thought of it earlier. The advent of free single use plastic bags eventually led to an enormous reduction in the presence of used condoms in the environment. How are Qld, WA, SA and Tasmania coping with the used condom problem now?

ref?

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2018 07:01:59
From: Stumpy_seahorse
ID: 1246751
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

monkey skipper said:


Stumpy_seahorse said:

monkey skipper said:

Back in the 70’s and early 80’s Franklins used to have a railed area in front of the checkouts. The staff filling the shelves used to toss opened cartons into the fenced area and customers used to pull out the boxes to pack there groceries into. win win situation

IGA still does this

the one near here doesn’t .

must be a SA thing..

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Date: 1/07/2018 07:05:02
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1246752
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

With regards to Molly’s query about condoms though this is an issue the WHO and the UN 2013 doc I just found discusses in the big picture , apparently the global issue of disposal risks for pharmaceutical and female/male condoms is an issue in developing nations as improper disposals may result in scavenging from landfill meaning the unsafe products ending up back in the marketplace and those health risks.

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Date: 1/07/2018 07:08:35
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1246753
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Male latex condom production worldwide is estimated at more
than 10 billion a year and many of these condoms
are sold in the highly regulated markets of developed
countries.

In comparison, female condoms are fairly new to the market and are produced at a much lower volume, e.g. about 35 million a year. They are marketed predominantly in developing countries, by public agencies and NGOs.
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Date: 1/07/2018 07:15:20
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1246754
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

4.2 Ways of disposing of condoms
Condoms for public projects are generally supplied in
cartons and gross boxes.

Male condoms are supplied in individual foil containers and female condoms may be supplied in plastic or foil containers. Therefore, the product may have the following components: • Cardboard in the cartons and inner boxes • Plastics in the foil wrapper • Aluminum in the foil wrapper • Lubricant (usually silicone fluid) • Powder on the condom • Natural rubber • Nitrile or other synthetic rubbers • Polyurethane • Small quantities of rubber processing chemicals • Various plastics from female condom retention features

New products, especially female condoms, are likely
to enter the market on an unpredictable schedule
from many different suppliers. It is impossible to
predict what materials will be used, but it is likely
that a silicone rubber or polyethylene product will
be marketed.

All product components except the cardboard are
mingled together intimately, and therefore separation
of the components is extremely difficult. ***********There is
currently no available process for doing so.*************

The plastics in a male condom pack are bonded to the aluminum
and are contaminated by the silicone fluid as is the
rubber.

Each packed male condom weighs about 3 g, and a
male condom Lot usually consists of 500,000 such
packets.

Female condom packs can weigh from 5 to
12 g each, and the Lot size can be from 10,000 up to
several hundred thousand. As with male condoms,
where the inner boxes have been coated with a plastic, it
is difficult to separate the layers in them, and such inner
boxes will probably not be suitable for paper recycling.

Although the individual components are separately
recyclable, separation can only be done by hand, and is
not practical at present.

The only exceptions may be
the cartons and inner boxes. Cardboard cartons can
be re-used or re-cycled in the same way as for other
cardboard containers.

General Landfill

As discussed previously, a landfill is the most common
form of waste disposal in most countries. Waste is
collected and taken to a designated site, where it is
tipped, and from time to time, covered with a layer of
soil. Typically, large depressions in the ground are filled.
Eventually, the site will be closed for further disposal,
and in some circumstances, it may later be developed
for industrial or residential uses.
Such sites generally accept rubbish in return for
payment on a volumetric basis. In many developing
countries some “scavenging”, in which items of value
are recovered, takes place. Therefore, it is quite possible
that dumped unused condoms could be found, and that
they may end up being sold.

If there is a significant risk of scavenging, then shredding
or compacting (in a compacting garbage truck or
stationary compactor) of the condoms may do sufficient
damage to make them unsuitable for reuse. Until the
condoms have been rendered unattractive to use, their
disposal should be kept in supervised storage. It may also
be possible to arrange for condoms dumped in landfill
to be covered immediately with other rubbish, to an
agreed depth, in order to minimize the risk of scavenging.
Specific burial

Decay may be aerobic (i.e. exposed to air) or anaerobic.
As far as condom disposal in a landfill is concerned, it
is prudent to ensure that they are buried immediately
after dumping, and thus the dominant decay processes
will probably be anaerobic.
The consequences of burial are similar to those of
burying domestic waste. The outer layer of a male
condom pack may be cellophane, polyethylene or a
similar plastic, while the inner layer will be polyethylene
or a similar material, and there will be aluminum in
between. These materials are widely found in packaging
and in landfills.

When it is buried, the average total time for complete
bio-degradation of cellulose film is two to three months
for uncoated products, and three to four months for
coated cellulose products. In lake water, the rate of biodegradation
is about double the above. The decay time
is increased by heavy metal pollution and decreased by
presence of manure.11 Polyethylene is known to take a
very long time to degrade in the environment.
The anaerobic degradation of the plastic and rubber
will ultimately result in carbon dioxide and methane (in
roughly equal quantities) as the end products. These
are major greenhouse gas contributors, and methane
is about 30 times as dangerous as the same amount
of carbon dioxide. Therefore, it is better practice to
burn methane into water and carbon dioxide than to
release it into the atmosphere. The decay mechanisms
of normal and modified polyethylene are discussed in
the following section under “incineration”.

The aluminum layer will probably be attacked by the acidic
soils in the landfills. It will react to form hydrogen gas
and solid compounds in the presence of both dilute acids
and alkalis. The silicone fluid will probably leach into the
landfill. Degradation is catalyzed by some ingredients in
the soil, but the speed of the process depends on whether
the soil is moist or not, and on the type of clay present.
In very dry soil, the de-polymerization reaction can be

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Date: 1/07/2018 07:23:38
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1246755
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

In short there are three options according to the doc

incineration (large collections) , landfill with immediate burial (large collections), rubbish collection (small quantities only) and they are dependent upon companies complying , public awareness and access to local rubbish or commercial waste disposal service provision.

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Date: 1/07/2018 07:48:05
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1246756
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Stumpy_seahorse said:


monkey skipper said:

Stumpy_seahorse said:

IGA still does this

the one near here doesn’t .

must be a SA thing..

possibly or more likely the size of the store , supermarkets have different floor plans depending on the building site but usually the demographic and population levels of where the supermarket is being built.

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Date: 1/07/2018 09:05:47
From: Michael V
ID: 1246762
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

poikilotherm said:


mollwollfumble said:

roughbarked said:

In that case, I’m rich in having a huge hoard of them.

Taking this more seriously, there needs to be a census of environmental garbage.

With separate categories for urban beach, public park, kerbside and remote beach. In each state.

Where possible, track each item back to its manufacturer.

Fragments of items count as full items.

I like the idea of making packaging waste the responsibility of the manufacturer, be hard, but would at least cause some innovation/changes in packaging as they tried to remain competitive and not breach legislation.

Sounds like a notion that needs exploring.

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Date: 1/07/2018 09:07:14
From: Stumpy_seahorse
ID: 1246763
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

monkey skipper said:


In short there are three options according to the doc

incineration (large collections) , landfill with immediate burial (large collections), rubbish collection (small quantities only) and they are dependent upon companies complying , public awareness and access to local rubbish or commercial waste disposal service provision.

you can re-use condoms.

just gotta shake the fu*k out of them

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2018 09:07:33
From: Michael V
ID: 1246764
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

monkey skipper said:


Back in the 70’s and early 80’s Franklins used to have a railed area in front of the checkouts. The staff filling the shelves used to toss opened cartons into the fenced area and customers used to pull out the boxes to pack there groceries into. win win situation

I lament the passing of this system at the supermarkets. Bunnings still use it.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2018 09:09:09
From: Michael V
ID: 1246765
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

monkey skipper said:


Stumpy_seahorse said:

monkey skipper said:

Back in the 70’s and early 80’s Franklins used to have a railed area in front of the checkouts. The staff filling the shelves used to toss opened cartons into the fenced area and customers used to pull out the boxes to pack there groceries into. win win situation

IGA still does this

the one near here doesn’t .

Nor our local IGA.

Reply Quote

Date: 1/07/2018 09:14:52
From: Stumpy_seahorse
ID: 1246767
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

Michael V said:


monkey skipper said:

Stumpy_seahorse said:

IGA still does this

the one near here doesn’t .

Nor our local IGA.

This I don’t understand with the eastern states going away from using bags..
It’s not like there isn’t a successful model to follow (SA and Tas) but they seem positive on reinventing the wheel and going their own way

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Date: 1/07/2018 09:19:49
From: buffy
ID: 1246768
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

I’ve only seen the boxes at Bunnings in Warrnambool. Not seen them in supermarkets for some years. I reckon the last time was probably IGA in Warrnambool, but probably 20 years ago. I reckon it could be easily done again. And I think if you go to the fruit and veg section at our Woolies you can ask the staff for a box.

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Date: 1/07/2018 09:28:22
From: monkey skipper
ID: 1246773
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

buffy said:

I’ve only seen the boxes at Bunnings in Warrnambool. Not seen them in supermarkets for some years. I reckon the last time was probably IGA in Warrnambool, but probably 20 years ago. I reckon it could be easily done again. And I think if you go to the fruit and veg section at our Woolies you can ask the staff for a box.

yep. at that time the options were the big brown bags or the boxes. those bags used to break depending upon the type of groceries purchased by all materials recyclable

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Date: 1/07/2018 09:30:47
From: Stumpy_seahorse
ID: 1246775
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

buffy said:

I’ve only seen the boxes at Bunnings in Warrnambool. Not seen them in supermarkets for some years. I reckon the last time was probably IGA in Warrnambool, but probably 20 years ago. I reckon it could be easily done again. And I think if you go to the fruit and veg section at our Woolies you can ask the staff for a box.

I’ll take a picture if I remember next time I’m down there

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Date: 1/07/2018 09:32:29
From: ChrispenEvan
ID: 1246776
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

our IGA has a box section just outside the front doors under the verandah with the trolleys.

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Date: 1/07/2018 09:33:29
From: Stumpy_seahorse
ID: 1246778
Subject: re: Plastic bag bans: How they stack up with the alternatives and it's not good

ChrispenEvan said:


our IGA has a box section just outside the front doors under the verandah with the trolleys.

Perth real estate agent?

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