Study things close up and find energy savings across the spectrum.

Look at things from far away to see other energy savings, possibilities.

Connect concepts together to form new ones based on previous data points.

Power plants are big and can be taken out easily by an enemy.

Micro grids can be useful against first strike from an enemy if they are all over the place.

They become very useful in earthquake regions etc

Things change quickly.

won’t be long neutrino, the electricity system will be monitoring you, it’ll be like a Borg dream, they’ll share your information, that’s what they call it these days, that gleaned from silent intrusions, and passing it on.

you’ll see the benefits, like you’ve just exited the small room, log into your (insert name of well known social media platform), and there will be an advertisements for lube. You know the smart meter will send info back to a computer that’s built a profile of appliances, usage, and the behaviors of the building occupants.

transition said:

won’t be long neutrino, the electricity system will be monitoring you, it’ll be like a Borg dream, they’ll share your information, that’s what they call it these days, that gleaned from silent intrusions, and passing it on.

you’ll see the benefits, like you’ve just exited the small room, log into your (insert name of well known social media platform), and there will be an advertisements for lube. You know the smart meter will send info back to a computer that’s built a profile of appliances, usage, and the behaviors of the building occupants.

Cyborg, human, robot threesomes are much better.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Things change quickly.

Not quickly enough. There is an enormous resistance to change.

You’ve heard of “economies of scale”. It’s better to have one factory producing 500 cars a year than 500 factories producing one car a year. It’s better to have one mine producing 5000 tons of iron or a year than 5000 mines producing 1 ton of iron ore a year. Better for the environment, better for quality control, better for price, better for living standards.

transition said:

won’t be long neutrino, the electricity system will be monitoring you, it’ll be like a Borg dream, they’ll share your information, that’s what they call it these days, that gleaned from silent intrusions, and passing it on.

you’ll see the benefits, like you’ve just exited the small room, log into your (insert name of well known social media platform), and there will be an advertisements for lube. You know the smart meter will send info back to a computer that’s built a profile of appliances, usage, and the behaviors of the building occupants.

If you are concerned about BB collecting information, information about your electricity usage is the least of your worries.

“Smart meters” combined with variable pricing and local storage are a win/win, and are essential if we want to significantly reduce fossil fuel use in energy supply.

What I want to know is why government and industry is being so bloody slow in getting these systems in place.

mollwollfumble said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Things change quickly.

Not quickly enough. There is an enormous resistance to change.

Yes, industrial inertia affects everything, usually for the worse, but no-one talks about it much these days.

mollwollfumble said:

You’ve heard of “economies of scale”. It’s better to have one factory producing 500 cars a year than 500 factories producing one car a year. It’s better to have one mine producing 5000 tons of iron or a year than 5000 mines producing 1 ton of iron ore a year. Better for the environment, better for quality control, better for price, better for living standards.

Well, sometimes, and up to a point.

But I agree that the microgrids-good, macrogrids-bad thing we seem to hear all the time is nonsense.

whatever anyway, smart meters are something else we can import.

same of oil/fuel etc

let’s hope the pansy culture never finds itself at war.

Tau.Neutrino said:

Study things close up and find energy savings across the spectrum.

Look at things from far away to see other energy savings, possibilities.

Connect concepts together to form new ones based on previous data points.

Power plants are big and can be taken out easily by an enemy.

Micro grids can be useful against first strike from an enemy if they are all over the place.

They become very useful in earthquake regions etc

I imagine a coordinated enemy who’d done their homework could invade Australia en masse and with a couple of hundreds jets take out just about every power plant in the nation bringing the civil population to their knees. Instead of concentrating on bases take out all power generation capability and you’d have a nation unable to function

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Things change quickly.

Not quickly enough. There is an enormous resistance to change.

Yes, industrial inertia affects everything, usually for the worse, but no-one talks about it much these days.

mollwollfumble said:

You’ve heard of “economies of scale”. It’s better to have one factory producing 500 cars a year than 500 factories producing one car a year. It’s better to have one mine producing 5000 tons of iron or a year than 5000 mines producing 1 ton of iron ore a year. Better for the environment, better for quality control, better for price, better for living standards.

Well, sometimes, and up to a point.

But I agree that the microgrids-good, macrogrids-bad thing we seem to hear all the time is nonsense.

Agree. Diversification is so often the best answer:
Microgrids + Macrogrid
Fossil fuel + Renewables
Local nets + Internet

I call it the “which twin had the Tony?” solution.

Cymek said:

I imagine a coordinated enemy who’d done their homework could invade Australia en masse and with a couple of hundreds jets take out just about every power plant in the nation bringing the civil population to their knees. Instead of concentrating on bases take out all power generation capability and you’d have a nation unable to function

LOL. Would it really? It would stop so many Australians from watching pictures of cats and playing computer games each day that we’d have an instant army. OK, not totally serious here.

But as has been suggested earlier, many power-critical facilities already have backup power supplies. Taking out oil refineries would cripple transportation and be easier to do. Ditto severing a dozen or so optic fibres.

Another way to cripple Australia would be to drop a bit of poison the cities water supply.

transition said:

whatever anyway, smart meters are something else we can import.

same of oil/fuel etc

let’s hope the pansy culture never finds itself at war.

What a strange comment.

> I call it the “which twin had the Tony?” solution.

Oh yuk, another autocorrect error.
I call it the “which twin has the Toni?” solution.

Do you understand the pop culture reference in this context? It relies on the English word “or” having two quite different meanings. One meaning is “A or B or both”. The other is “A or B but not both”.

When it comes to fossil fuel or renewables, it’s not a case of “cannot have both” but a case of “best is both”.
Similarly with microgrids and local nets and desalination.

The answer to “which twin has the Toni?” is “both”. One twin explained that about 30 years after the advertisement first went to air.

mollwollfumble said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

Agree. Diversification is so often the best answer:
Microgrids + Macrogrid
Fossil fuel + Renewables
Local nets + Internet

I call it the “which twin had the Tony?” solution.

Cymek said:

I imagine a coordinated enemy who’d done their homework could invade Australia en masse and with a couple of hundreds jets take out just about every power plant in the nation bringing the civil population to their knees. Instead of concentrating on bases take out all power generation capability and you’d have a nation unable to function

LOL. Would it really? It would stop so many Australians from watching pictures of cats and playing computer games each day that we’d have an instant army. OK, not totally serious here.

But as has been suggested earlier, many power-critical facilities already have backup power supplies. Taking out oil refineries would cripple transportation and be easier to do. Ditto severing a dozen or so optic fibres.

Another way to cripple Australia would be to drop a bit of poison the cities water supply.

If the entire population had no power and the backups became primary power we’d be in trouble.
Society for the most part can’t run without power.
If you could decentralise power and people could generate most of what they need from home it would be harder to cripple power infrastructure. It is an unlikely scenario I agree but how long would it take to get a power plant fixed or replaced if it was attacked with military weapons

mollwollfumble said:

> I call it the “which twin had the Tony?” solution.

Oh yuk, another autocorrect error.
I call it the “which twin has the Toni?” solution.

Do you understand the pop culture reference in this context? It relies on the English word “or” having two quite different meanings. One meaning is “A or B or both”. The other is “A or B but not both”.

When it comes to fossil fuel or renewables, it’s not a case of “cannot have both” but a case of “best is both”.
Similarly with microgrids and local nets and desalination.

The answer to “which twin has the Toni?” is “both”. One twin explained that about 30 years after the advertisement first went to air.

I was reading about Perth’s desalination plants, gee they work hard and seem to be very efficient, well done us

mollwollfumble said:

When it comes to fossil fuel or renewables, it’s not a case of “cannot have both” but a case of “best is both”.

Only if you ignore the long term costs associated with use of fossil fuels.

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

When it comes to fossil fuel or renewables, it’s not a case of “cannot have both” but a case of “best is both”.

Only if you ignore the long term costs associated with use of fossil fuels.

Can you put non-renewable plants on a long term standby mode so if a cylindrical alien space whale probe uses it’s technology to complete cover the Earth with clouds rendering solar useless they can be reactivated

Cymek said:

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

When it comes to fossil fuel or renewables, it’s not a case of “cannot have both” but a case of “best is both”.

Only if you ignore the long term costs associated with use of fossil fuels.

Can you put non-renewable plants on a long term standby mode so if a cylindrical alien space whale probe uses it’s technology to complete cover the Earth with clouds rendering solar useless they can be reactivated

I suppose you could. Whether that is the best way to prepare for the arrival of our new space whale probe masters, I doubt.

What might be ideal is homes are able to supply their own power and water needs as independently as possible, they being said if millions of homes collected rain water would you get the government claiming it owns rain and you can’t steal it.
It would be great if you could use renewable generated power and water from tanks to grow hydro / aquaponic vegetables and fruit and grow fish as well

The Rev Dodgson said:

mollwollfumble said:

When it comes to fossil fuel or renewables, it’s not a case of “cannot have both” but a case of “best is both”.

Only if you ignore the long term costs associated with use of fossil fuels.

What long term costs (TIC)?

Cymek said:

What might be ideal is homes are able to supply their own power and water needs as independently as possible, they being said if millions of homes collected rain water would you get the government claiming it owns rain and you can’t steal it.

On the point of owning rain, that becomes a very serious issue when it comes to farm dams. Farms upstream can steal water from farms downstream. Should the government step in to steal rain from upstream farmers in order to prevent crippling drought downstream?

mollwollfumble said:

> I call it the “which twin had the Tony?” solution.

Oh yuk, another autocorrect error.
I call it the “which twin has the Toni?” solution.

Do you understand the pop culture reference in this context? It relies on the English word “or” having two quite different meanings. One meaning is “A or B or both”. The other is “A or B but not both”.

When it comes to fossil fuel or renewables, it’s not a case of “cannot have both” but a case of “best is both”.
Similarly with microgrids and local nets and desalination.

The answer to “which twin has the Toni?” is “both”. One twin explained that about 30 years after the advertisement first went to air.

Whoosh…

Tau.Neutrino said:

Micro grids can be useful against first strike from an enemy if they are all over the place.

knock out the oil refineries with thermobaric tipped ICBMs (don’t bother sending bombers – they are too slow) and you’ve got about two days before chaos breaks out. two months later when the various racially based tribes sorry “communities” assert their dominance over a police force (sorry, service) and a military can’t drive anywhere and is powerless as cities burn to the ground the enemy walks in. then again why would they bother? they would most likely already be bribing various government ministers and people in positions of power and reaping the benefits.

Kurnell Refinery (Caltex), 124,500 bbl/d (19,790 m3/d), Botany Bay – closed in 2014 and converted to a terminal
Clyde Refinery (Royal Dutch Shell), 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d), Clyde – closed in 2012 and converted to a terminal
Matraville Refinery (Total), 45,000 bbl/d (7,200 m3/d), Matraville – closed in 1985
Victoria

Geelong Refinery (Vitol), 130,000 bbl/d (21,000 m3/d), Geelong
Altona Refinery (ExxonMobil), about 75,000 bbl/d (11,900 m3/d), Altona North (refinery reduced from 2 trains to 1 train between 2000–2004)
Westernport Refinery (BP), 35,000 bbl/d (5,600 m3/d), Crib Point – closed in 1984
Queensland

Bulwer Island Refinery (BP), Bulwer Island 90,000 bbl/d (14,000 m3/d), Nelson Complexity Index 7.21 – closed in 2015 and converted to a jet terminal
Lytton Refinery (Caltex), 104,000 bbl/d (16,500 m3/d), Lytton
Eromanga Refinery (IOR Energy), 1,200 bbl/d (190 m3/d), Eromanga, Queensland
South Australia

Port Stanvac Refinery (ExxonMobil), 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d), Lonsdale – mothballed in 2003, closed in 2009; the 239 hectare site is being demolished and cleaned up through 2019
Western Australia

Kwinana Refinery (BP), Kwinana 138,000 bbl/d (21,900 m3/d), Nelson Complexity Index 7.70

big consumers of power could be knocked out by conventional strikes on zone substations (132KV/11KV) or better still substations/ switching stations that ring major cities eg 330KV/132KV

microgrids couldn’t supply power to the expensive tower blocks in CBDs

you could follow up with satellite uplinks

the key to knocking out australia is most likely a strike on the handful of refineries and the switching stations – powerstations could still turn but the power can’t be routed anywhere useful.

the tankers carrying oil wouldn’t dare sail near australia because the insurer wouldn’t allow it.

transition said:

won’t be long neutrino, the electricity system will be monitoring you, it’ll be like a Borg dream, they’ll share your information, that’s what they call it these days, that gleaned from silent intrusions, and passing it on.

you’ll see the benefits, like you’ve just exited the small room, log into your (insert name of well known social media platform), and there will be an advertisements for lube. You know the smart meter will send info back to a computer that’s built a profile of appliances, usage, and the behaviors of the building occupants.

energy australia looked into using the powerlines to the house as a data line for the internet. it was easily achievable. they were stopped by the state government worried that they would wipe out the telcom companies.

wookiemeister said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Micro grids can be useful against first strike from an enemy if they are all over the place.

knock out the oil refineries with thermobaric tipped ICBMs (don’t bother sending bombers – they are too slow) and you’ve got about two days before chaos breaks out. two months later when the various racially based tribes sorry “communities” assert their dominance over a police force (sorry, service) and a military can’t drive anywhere and is powerless as cities burn to the ground the enemy walks in. then again why would they bother? they would most likely already be bribing various government ministers and people in positions of power and reaping the benefits.

Kurnell Refinery (Caltex), 124,500 bbl/d (19,790 m3/d), Botany Bay – closed in 2014 and converted to a terminal
Clyde Refinery (Royal Dutch Shell), 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d), Clyde – closed in 2012 and converted to a terminal
Matraville Refinery (Total), 45,000 bbl/d (7,200 m3/d), Matraville – closed in 1985
Victoria

Geelong Refinery (Vitol), 130,000 bbl/d (21,000 m3/d), Geelong
Altona Refinery (ExxonMobil), about 75,000 bbl/d (11,900 m3/d), Altona North (refinery reduced from 2 trains to 1 train between 2000–2004)
Westernport Refinery (BP), 35,000 bbl/d (5,600 m3/d), Crib Point – closed in 1984
Queensland

Bulwer Island Refinery (BP), Bulwer Island 90,000 bbl/d (14,000 m3/d), Nelson Complexity Index 7.21 – closed in 2015 and converted to a jet terminal
Lytton Refinery (Caltex), 104,000 bbl/d (16,500 m3/d), Lytton
Eromanga Refinery (IOR Energy), 1,200 bbl/d (190 m3/d), Eromanga, Queensland
South Australia

Port Stanvac Refinery (ExxonMobil), 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d), Lonsdale – mothballed in 2003, closed in 2009; the 239 hectare site is being demolished and cleaned up through 2019
Western Australia

Kwinana Refinery (BP), Kwinana 138,000 bbl/d (21,900 m3/d), Nelson Complexity Index 7.70

big consumers of power could be knocked out by conventional strikes on zone substations (132KV/11KV) or better still substations/ switching stations that ring major cities eg 330KV/132KV

microgrids couldn’t supply power to the expensive tower blocks in CBDs

you could follow up with satellite uplinks

the key to knocking out australia is most likely a strike on the handful of refineries and the switching stations – powerstations could still turn but the power can’t be routed anywhere useful.

How long would it take to build a new refinery from scratch, in an emergency? It’s just made from steel pipes and steel tanks isn’t it, nothing exotic.

The Jebel Ali refinery in the UAE took two and a half years to complete.

China’s oil refining capacity jumped by 1.3 billion barrels a day between 2005 and 2006.

Could Australia build a new small refinery in a couple of months? Assuming no government red tape and assuming preexisting wharf and preexisting knowledge of layout.

mollwollfumble said:

wookiemeister said:

Tau.Neutrino said:

Micro grids can be useful against first strike from an enemy if they are all over the place.

knock out the oil refineries with thermobaric tipped ICBMs (don’t bother sending bombers – they are too slow) and you’ve got about two days before chaos breaks out. two months later when the various racially based tribes sorry “communities” assert their dominance over a police force (sorry, service) and a military can’t drive anywhere and is powerless as cities burn to the ground the enemy walks in. then again why would they bother? they would most likely already be bribing various government ministers and people in positions of power and reaping the benefits.

Kurnell Refinery (Caltex), 124,500 bbl/d (19,790 m3/d), Botany Bay – closed in 2014 and converted to a terminal
Clyde Refinery (Royal Dutch Shell), 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d), Clyde – closed in 2012 and converted to a terminal
Matraville Refinery (Total), 45,000 bbl/d (7,200 m3/d), Matraville – closed in 1985
Victoria

Geelong Refinery (Vitol), 130,000 bbl/d (21,000 m3/d), Geelong
Altona Refinery (ExxonMobil), about 75,000 bbl/d (11,900 m3/d), Altona North (refinery reduced from 2 trains to 1 train between 2000–2004)
Westernport Refinery (BP), 35,000 bbl/d (5,600 m3/d), Crib Point – closed in 1984
Queensland

Bulwer Island Refinery (BP), Bulwer Island 90,000 bbl/d (14,000 m3/d), Nelson Complexity Index 7.21 – closed in 2015 and converted to a jet terminal
Lytton Refinery (Caltex), 104,000 bbl/d (16,500 m3/d), Lytton
Eromanga Refinery (IOR Energy), 1,200 bbl/d (190 m3/d), Eromanga, Queensland
South Australia

Port Stanvac Refinery (ExxonMobil), 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d), Lonsdale – mothballed in 2003, closed in 2009; the 239 hectare site is being demolished and cleaned up through 2019
Western Australia

Kwinana Refinery (BP), Kwinana 138,000 bbl/d (21,900 m3/d), Nelson Complexity Index 7.70

big consumers of power could be knocked out by conventional strikes on zone substations (132KV/11KV) or better still substations/ switching stations that ring major cities eg 330KV/132KV

microgrids couldn’t supply power to the expensive tower blocks in CBDs

you could follow up with satellite uplinks

the key to knocking out australia is most likely a strike on the handful of refineries and the switching stations – powerstations could still turn but the power can’t be routed anywhere useful.

How long would it take to build a new refinery from scratch, in an emergency? It’s just made from steel pipes and steel tanks isn’t it, nothing exotic.

The Jebel Ali refinery in the UAE took two and a half years to complete.

China’s oil refining capacity jumped by 1.3 billion barrels a day between 2005 and 2006.

Could Australia build a new small refinery in a couple of months? Assuming no government red tape and assuming preexisting wharf and preexisting knowledge of layout.

Does Australia even have the equipment and components to build one from scratch.
It took three or four weeks to fix an escalator at Perth train station, why would it take so long, if its not a priority they OK fair enough (not really as its slack) but if we didn’t even have the components to fix that how on earth could we build new power stations if they were destroyed.

According to this website, a small oil refinery can be built in two minutes. That seems a bit fast to me.

http://rust.wikia.com/wiki/Small_Oil_Refinery

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

wookiemeister said:

knock out the oil refineries with thermobaric tipped ICBMs (don’t bother sending bombers – they are too slow) and you’ve got about two days before chaos breaks out. two months later when the various racially based tribes sorry “communities” assert their dominance over a police force (sorry, service) and a military can’t drive anywhere and is powerless as cities burn to the ground the enemy walks in. then again why would they bother? they would most likely already be bribing various government ministers and people in positions of power and reaping the benefits.

Kurnell Refinery (Caltex), 124,500 bbl/d (19,790 m3/d), Botany Bay – closed in 2014 and converted to a terminal
Clyde Refinery (Royal Dutch Shell), 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d), Clyde – closed in 2012 and converted to a terminal
Matraville Refinery (Total), 45,000 bbl/d (7,200 m3/d), Matraville – closed in 1985
Victoria

Geelong Refinery (Vitol), 130,000 bbl/d (21,000 m3/d), Geelong
Altona Refinery (ExxonMobil), about 75,000 bbl/d (11,900 m3/d), Altona North (refinery reduced from 2 trains to 1 train between 2000–2004)
Westernport Refinery (BP), 35,000 bbl/d (5,600 m3/d), Crib Point – closed in 1984
Queensland

Bulwer Island Refinery (BP), Bulwer Island 90,000 bbl/d (14,000 m3/d), Nelson Complexity Index 7.21 – closed in 2015 and converted to a jet terminal
Lytton Refinery (Caltex), 104,000 bbl/d (16,500 m3/d), Lytton
Eromanga Refinery (IOR Energy), 1,200 bbl/d (190 m3/d), Eromanga, Queensland
South Australia

Port Stanvac Refinery (ExxonMobil), 100,000 bbl/d (16,000 m3/d), Lonsdale – mothballed in 2003, closed in 2009; the 239 hectare site is being demolished and cleaned up through 2019
Western Australia

Kwinana Refinery (BP), Kwinana 138,000 bbl/d (21,900 m3/d), Nelson Complexity Index 7.70

big consumers of power could be knocked out by conventional strikes on zone substations (132KV/11KV) or better still substations/ switching stations that ring major cities eg 330KV/132KV

microgrids couldn’t supply power to the expensive tower blocks in CBDs

you could follow up with satellite uplinks

the key to knocking out australia is most likely a strike on the handful of refineries and the switching stations – powerstations could still turn but the power can’t be routed anywhere useful.

How long would it take to build a new refinery from scratch, in an emergency? It’s just made from steel pipes and steel tanks isn’t it, nothing exotic.

The Jebel Ali refinery in the UAE took two and a half years to complete.

China’s oil refining capacity jumped by 1.3 billion barrels a day between 2005 and 2006.

Could Australia build a new small refinery in a couple of months? Assuming no government red tape and assuming preexisting wharf and preexisting knowledge of layout.

Does Australia even have the equipment and components to build one from scratch.
It took three or four weeks to fix an escalator at Perth train station, why would it take so long, if its not a priority they OK fair enough (not really as its slack) but if we didn’t even have the components to fix that how on earth could we build new power stations if they were destroyed.

Yeah we could we have the expertise.
I don’t know how much oil is left in SW Queensland fields, that oil takes little refining, as a matter of fact you can run a diesel engine from it straight out of the ground.

Peak Warming Man said:

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

How long would it take to build a new refinery from scratch, in an emergency? It’s just made from steel pipes and steel tanks isn’t it, nothing exotic.

The Jebel Ali refinery in the UAE took two and a half years to complete.

China’s oil refining capacity jumped by 1.3 billion barrels a day between 2005 and 2006.

Could Australia build a new small refinery in a couple of months? Assuming no government red tape and assuming preexisting wharf and preexisting knowledge of layout.

Does Australia even have the equipment and components to build one from scratch.
It took three or four weeks to fix an escalator at Perth train station, why would it take so long, if its not a priority they OK fair enough (not really as its slack) but if we didn’t even have the components to fix that how on earth could we build new power stations if they were destroyed.

Yeah we could we have the expertise.
I don’t know how much oil is left in SW Queensland fields, that oil takes little refining, as a matter of fact you can run a diesel engine from it straight out of the ground.

Yes done that, no problems.

We were talking microgrids, why not micro oil refineries? At it’s simplest, there’s no fundamental difference between a micro oil refinery and a still for producing hooch.

This looks more promising, though. Buy an oil refinery off the shelf. 200 or 500 barrels per day.

Http://www.peiyangchem.com/modular-refinery/mini-oil-refinery.html

Fits in 20 or so shipping containers.

Layout for a 500 bpd refinery.

mollwollfumble said:

We were talking microgrids, why not micro oil refineries? At it’s simplest, there’s no fundamental difference between a micro oil refinery and a still for producing hooch.

This looks more promising, though. Buy an oil refinery off the shelf. 200 or 500 barrels per day.

Http://www.peiyangchem.com/modular-refinery/mini-oil-refinery.html

Fits in 20 or so shipping containers.

Layout for a 500 bpd refinery.

They’d be useful for small oil fields

Wonder if it’d be viable, one barrel of WTI costs ~$62, and makes about 76L of unleaded, 40 L of diesel and 8L of jet fuel.

Australia’s Eromanga refinery.

This is Australia’s largest interior oil refinery.

poikilotherm said:

Wonder if it’d be viable, one barrel of WTI costs ~$62, and makes about 76L of unleaded, 40 L of diesel and 8L of jet fuel.

I’m thinking post-apocalypse, where cost isn’t an issue, but speed of construction is.

mollwollfumble said:

poikilotherm said:

Wonder if it’d be viable, one barrel of WTI costs ~$62, and makes about 76L of unleaded, 40 L of diesel and 8L of jet fuel.

I’m thinking post-apocalypse, where cost isn’t an issue, but speed of construction is.

Why is speed an issue? What’s so important when the world has collapsed that you need to be done quickly?

mollwollfumble said:

poikilotherm said:

Wonder if it’d be viable, one barrel of WTI costs ~$62, and makes about 76L of unleaded, 40 L of diesel and 8L of jet fuel.

I’m thinking post-apocalypse, where cost isn’t an issue, but speed of construction is.

mollwollfumble said:

poikilotherm said:

Wonder if it’d be viable, one barrel of WTI costs ~$62, and makes about 76L of unleaded, 40 L of diesel and 8L of jet fuel.

I’m thinking post-apocalypse, where cost isn’t an issue, but speed of construction is.

You’d need to have on on hand, in stock and ready to assemble.You’d find it difficult to get one all that distance from post-apocalyptic China.

Michael V said:

mollwollfumble said:

poikilotherm said:

Wonder if it’d be viable, one barrel of WTI costs ~$62, and makes about 76L of unleaded, 40 L of diesel and 8L of jet fuel.

I’m thinking post-apocalypse, where cost isn’t an issue, but speed of construction is.

You’d need to have on on hand, in stock and ready to assemble.You’d find it difficult to get one all that distance from post-apocalyptic China.

Probably be easier to just walk around instead of trying to make fuel for your Chery.

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’m thinking post-apocalypse, where cost isn’t an issue, but speed of construction is.

You’d need to have on on hand, in stock and ready to assemble.You’d find it difficult to get one all that distance from post-apocalyptic China.

Probably be easier to just walk around instead of trying to make fuel for your Chery.

Sure, but where are your tomatoes (etc) coming from?

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

poikilotherm said:

Wonder if it’d be viable, one barrel of WTI costs ~$62, and makes about 76L of unleaded, 40 L of diesel and 8L of jet fuel.

I’m thinking post-apocalypse, where cost isn’t an issue, but speed of construction is.

Post apocalypse for a fair time there would be lots of fuel around, every single car would have some. Though I did find it a bit odd in Mad Max world was guzzline was rare they were getting around in supercharged V8s instead of Nissan micras.

AwesomeO said:

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

I’m thinking post-apocalypse, where cost isn’t an issue, but speed of construction is.

Post apocalypse for a fair time there would be lots of fuel around, every single car would have some. Though I did find it a bit odd in Mad Max world was guzzline was rare they were getting around in supercharged V8s instead of Nissan micras.

Myself as well

Michael V said:

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

You’d need to have on on hand, in stock and ready to assemble.You’d find it difficult to get one all that distance from post-apocalyptic China.

Probably be easier to just walk around instead of trying to make fuel for your Chery.

Sure, but where are your tomatoes (etc) coming from?

I think weird fruits would be pretty low down on the scale of ‘needs’ in that situation.

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

poikilotherm said:

Probably be easier to just walk around instead of trying to make fuel for your Chery.

Sure, but where are your tomatoes (etc) coming from?

I think weird fruits would be pretty low down on the scale of ‘needs’ in that situation.

Your town would likely run out of most foods within a fortnight. No fuel = no replenishment. No electricity = much food spoilage.

Michael V said:

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

Sure, but where are your tomatoes (etc) coming from?

I think weird fruits would be pretty low down on the scale of ‘needs’ in that situation.

Your town would likely run out of most foods within a fortnight. No fuel = no replenishment. No electricity = much food spoilage.

There’s always….food

It’d be a mostly paleo diet out here – cows, goats, sheep, dogs, camels, alpacas, apples, wine…

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

poikilotherm said:

I think weird fruits would be pretty low down on the scale of ‘needs’ in that situation.

Your town would likely run out of most foods within a fortnight. No fuel = no replenishment. No electricity = much food spoilage.

There’s always….food

It’d be a mostly paleo diet out here – cows, goats, sheep, dogs, camels, alpacas, apples, wine…

Sure Meat is around for a while – 3-4 days. How far are you prepared to walk for it? 25 km each way? Apples? Three weeks a year. Sewerage? Ummmm. Fresh water? No longer pumped.

mollwollfumble said:

We were talking microgrids, why not micro oil refineries? At it’s simplest, there’s no fundamental difference between a micro oil refinery and a still for producing hooch.

This looks more promising, though. Buy an oil refinery off the shelf. 200 or 500 barrels per day.

Http://www.peiyangchem.com/modular-refinery/mini-oil-refinery.html

Fits in 20 or so shipping containers.

!http://www.peiyangchem.com/uploads/image/20170620/10/crude-oil-product-yield.png

Layout for a 500 bpd refinery.

!http://www.peiyangchem.com/uploads/image/20171215/09/500bpd-modular-refinery-3d-model1.jpg

In the short run you could run some diesel trucks on bio-diesel.. vegetable oil. Petrol vehicles could use whatever alt hydrocarbon fuel that could be had. In a fuel strike in the 70s I was told to stick a few drums of benzene in the tank.. “Don’t splash it around too much.” (!)

Michael V said:

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

Your town would likely run out of most foods within a fortnight. No fuel = no replenishment. No electricity = much food spoilage.

There’s always….food

It’d be a mostly paleo diet out here – cows, goats, sheep, dogs, camels, alpacas, apples, wine…

Sure Meat is around for a while – 3-4 days. How far are you prepared to walk for it? 25 km each way? Apples? Three weeks a year. Sewerage? Ummmm. Fresh water? No longer pumped.

Water is the biggest issue here. There are two dams ‘nearby’ which would last a fair while without people being able to pump water out of them, these dams are also surrounded by farms with lots of meat. It wouldn’t be healthy, but it’d be surviving.

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

poikilotherm said:

There’s always….food

It’d be a mostly paleo diet out here – cows, goats, sheep, dogs, camels, alpacas, apples, wine…

Sure Meat is around for a while – 3-4 days. How far are you prepared to walk for it? 25 km each way? Apples? Three weeks a year. Sewerage? Ummmm. Fresh water? No longer pumped.

Water is the biggest issue here. There are two dams ‘nearby’ which would last a fair while without people being able to pump water out of them, these dams are also surrounded by farms with lots of meat. It wouldn’t be healthy, but it’d be surviving.

I’ve got enough water to last me if it was just for drinking and I’d already eaten my family.

Cymek said:

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

Sure Meat is around for a while – 3-4 days. How far are you prepared to walk for it? 25 km each way? Apples? Three weeks a year. Sewerage? Ummmm. Fresh water? No longer pumped.

Water is the biggest issue here. There are two dams ‘nearby’ which would last a fair while without people being able to pump water out of them, these dams are also surrounded by farms with lots of meat. It wouldn’t be healthy, but it’d be surviving.

I’ve got enough water to last me if it was just for drinking and I’d already eaten my family.

I have some zombie supplies but with hospitals gone I wouldn’t last more than two years, and that’s on the high side.

Cymek said:

poikilotherm said:

Michael V said:

Sure Meat is around for a while – 3-4 days. How far are you prepared to walk for it? 25 km each way? Apples? Three weeks a year. Sewerage? Ummmm. Fresh water? No longer pumped.

Water is the biggest issue here. There are two dams ‘nearby’ which would last a fair while without people being able to pump water out of them, these dams are also surrounded by farms with lots of meat. It wouldn’t be healthy, but it’d be surviving.

I’ve got enough water to last me if it was just for drinking and I’d already eaten my family.

There’s no way I could stop mrs m from doing two loads of washing every day.

mollwollfumble said:

Cymek said:

poikilotherm said:

Water is the biggest issue here. There are two dams ‘nearby’ which would last a fair while without people being able to pump water out of them, these dams are also surrounded by farms with lots of meat. It wouldn’t be healthy, but it’d be surviving.

I’ve got enough water to last me if it was just for drinking and I’d already eaten my family.

There’s no way I could stop mrs m from doing two loads of washing every day.

Without electricity, it’d reduce spectacularly, and automatically. No washing machine, no running piped water.

mollwollfumble said:

Cymek said:

poikilotherm said:

Water is the biggest issue here. There are two dams ‘nearby’ which would last a fair while without people being able to pump water out of them, these dams are also surrounded by farms with lots of meat. It wouldn’t be healthy, but it’d be surviving.

I’ve got enough water to last me if it was just for drinking and I’d already eaten my family.

There’s no way I could stop mrs m from doing two loads of washing every day.

Five thousands litres last 4 of us through the summer and we have another 5500 litres worth of tanks we don’t even use for drinking, they are then refilled by the rain

Cymek said:

mollwollfumble said:

Cymek said:

I’ve got enough water to last me if it was just for drinking and I’d already eaten my family.

There’s no way I could stop mrs m from doing two loads of washing every day.

Five thousands litres last 4 of us through the summer and we have another 5500 litres worth of tanks we don’t even use for drinking, they are then refilled by the rain

Five thousand litres here takes 6 months to fill and 4 weeks to empty. Even though it’s only used for the washing machine and toilet.